By Thy Words

[RZehr]

I have people who know me tell me that I could never make it in a ultra conservative church. In looking back in the past, when our church toyed with some of the issues that were at hand, I think it is indicative that our church rejected it.
Perhaps I’m really not that different in my thinking as some who have left those churches. The only difference might be that I had a say before it was accepted and ingrained, and my church rejected that path, while for some of you others here, your church accepted the path and rejected your thinking instead.
Ultimately myself and you both rejected it. But I didn’t have to live it first, nor leave it. It left me.

[ABC 123]

You have an interesting sense of entitlement to the proverbial microphone.

ABC, with respect, I've really never seen you post much at all other than criticising whatever more-conservative group you came from. And nothing positive at all spoken about any of your experiences there.

It's rather one-dimensional. If you don't like conservative Mennonites, hanging out on a forum started by a conservative Beachy-Amish Mennonite seems like an odd choice.

1. I post infrequently*. Am I that negative? I guess I am not a fair judge of my own actions. I will let others judge that for me.
2. You belong to "the one true church". I am not sure why you are here if absolutely none of the rest of us are.

*i have a total post count of 315. Josh is inexcess of 11,500.

[Josh]

1. I post infrequently*. Am I that negative? I guess I am not a fair judge of my own actions. I will let others judge that for me.

Well, on balance I can tell that some very negative things happened to you in past church situations. They must have been very hurtful. Unfortunately sometimes when that kind of stuff goes on for years and years, it still looms large in one's mind and the person who was hurt frequently brings it up. I am guessing this is some of what happened with you. (Just a guess.)

Nobody who posts on this forum is part of an ultra-conservative church. Most people who post frequently here aren't even plain. Many liberals are here. Some of those who think they are "conservative"/"plain" are in the least-conservative wing of the conservative Anabaptist world.

2. You belong to "the one true church". I am not sure why you are here if absolutely none of the rest of us are.

I treat people as individuals, instead of as stereotypes of a group. I believe there are lots of Christians in all kinds of places, and that groups outside of mine are worth knowing about and worth knowing people from.

I will try to say this as respectfully as I can... I hope it doesn't come across as an attack. When people spend their whole lives or a lot of their life in a very ultra conservative group, they tend to want to categorise everyone into either the "good" or the "bad" people. The people in their own group are the "good" people (unless they are drifting away from the group). The people outside of the group are "bad", unless they are people who are so holy and righteous that they are living up to the standards of the group.

This attitude can be hard to let go of. The rest of the world doesn't see people this way (at least when it comes to church affiliation). It is not my business or concern where someone has their church membership. I just see them as an individual and I evaluate their individual choices, how they choose to behave. I don't try to figure out which "group" they are part of. This would even apply to people in my own church. If I ran into one of them in public, I would be much more interested in seeing them as an individual than assuming they are one of the "good" people.

[Wade]

I have people who know me tell me that I could never make it in a ultra conservative church. In looking back in the past, when our church toyed with some of the issues that were at hand, I think it is indicative that our church rejected it.
Perhaps I’m really not that different in my thinking as some who have left those churches. The only difference might be that I had a say before it was accepted and ingrained, and my church rejected that path, while for some of you others here, your church accepted the path and rejected your thinking instead.
Ultimately myself and you both rejected it. But I didn’t have to live it first, nor leave it. It left me.

I think it is how you define ultra conservative. It is possible to be plain in dress and activities with very little thought into it because ones perspective is centered on Christ and His kingdom - it's part of the package of self denial ( keep in mind I have not seen the micromanaging expressed here).

Eternal biblical principles are preached in my experience with ultras and therefore getting caught up in the little details of do's and don'ts sounds a bit absurd with what others here say about ultras. Ultras are rather doing work bees, loving our neighbors, visiting the fatherless and widows and many other things serving in the name of Christ. I've seen ultras have a level of commitment in things of serving and being consecrated to God a step higher and my experience with those in your conference is they have more things like boats, snowmobiles, and trucks with big tires. I've had them say they are looser so to be more welcoming of seekers but for me leaving the world behind and them having all this pleasure seeking stuff wasn't the least bit helpful. I think their are many intermediates that would in with ultras without noticing much difference. But it sounds like Nationwide can be an exception to other ultras?

[Signtist]

Just for the record, would it be possible to discover what affiliations RZehr and Wade would be part of?

[RZehr]

I have people who know me tell me that I could never make it in a ultra conservative church. In looking back in the past, when our church toyed with some of the issues that were at hand, I think it is indicative that our church rejected it.
Perhaps I’m really not that different in my thinking as some who have left those churches. The only difference might be that I had a say before it was accepted and ingrained, and my church rejected that path, while for some of you others here, your church accepted the path and rejected your thinking instead.
Ultimately myself and you both rejected it. But I didn’t have to live it first, nor leave it. It left me.

I think it is how you define ultra conservative. It is possible to be plain in dress and activities with very little thought into it because ones perspective is centered on Christ and His kingdom - it's part of the package of self denial ( keep in mind I have not seen the micromanaging expressed here).

Eternal biblical principles are preached in my experience with ultras and therefore getting caught up in the little details of do's and don'ts sounds a bit absurd with what others here say about ultras. Ultras are rather doing work bees, loving our neighbors, visiting the fatherless and widows and many other things serving in the name of Christ. I've seen ultras have a level of commitment in things of serving and being consecrated to God a step higher and my experience with those in your conference is they have more things like boats, snowmobiles, and trucks with big tires. I've had them say they are looser so to be more welcoming of seekers but for me leaving the world behind and them having all this pleasure seeking stuff wasn't the least bit helpful. I think their are many intermediates that would in with ultras without noticing much difference. But it sounds like Nationwide can be an exception to other ultras?

I don’t disagree with that. I do think that the Nationwide churches in the west such as yours, are granted more autonomy and are under less of what BTW-R&S kind of things that their churches are back east. I might be able to make it in some Nationwide churches out here. Maybe not all of them, but some.
But I strongly think that the Nationwide/R&S back east are different. Same with Eastern. Their churches in the west are granted more leeway that their churches in the east.
Again, I’m not speaking from experience, just saying what little I’ve observed and things that people in those churches have described to me over the years.
I think that even some ultra conservative Beachys “fellowship” churches in California and Montana are looser than their own churches in the east. Same with old order Amish in Montana. Less focus on externals.

I think this is because in the west, there simply isn’t the density of Plain churches, and so there isn’t the level of attention given. Many of these churches are the only Plain one in their community.

I expect that the respective sister churches in the east may look a bit askance at your church, the Easterns etc because you aren’t operating in the way people here are describing their experiences. Your east coast sister churches may consider your church drifting into the world eventually because you aren’t holding these ways of thinking enough in the foreground of your mind.

[RZehr]

Just for the record, would it be possible to discover what affiliations RZehr and Wade would be part of?

I’m in the Western Fellowship. Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Colorado, Alberta, British Columbia, and Alaska.

[justme]

I guess I wasn’t very clear because what I was trying to say is that in some churches even leaving the church for another, where you can agree with the standards, is considered wrong and breaking vows.

I belong to one of these churches. There are exactly 2 Mennonite groups that have this doctrine. The rest of the Mennonites, ranging from Amish to conservative Mennonites to Brethren to everybody in between, disagrees with us on this.

I'm not really sure what the big deal is. If you don't want to be part of a church like this, then don't join one. If you think they're really bad and wrong, you should be delighted to leave one and get away from it, if you do join. It's like sitting around and complaining about how bad the Episcopalians are because you just can't imagine a church with red doors. If you don't like red doors then don't go to a church with red doors.

you joined that church of your own free will, after you became an adult.
the kids who grew up in the church are expected to join, and dare i say indoctrinated into joining.
there is a bit of difference in how a person comes to be a part of a specific church.

[ragpicker]

I’m so glad the western Nationwiders are better. They would never slap a ban on a repentant, recently excommunicated soul who remembered one more “sin” he wanted to clear up. (He had gambled.) Except they did.

He had voluntarily fessed up at 2am one morning and knew he’d get excommunicated, but he didn’t care as he was free before God. Then a few days later he remembered the stop at the casino. So he fessed that up too. That earned him the ban. Because it proved his repentance wasn’t sincere. If you can’t understand how utterly devastating this would be to a sincere heart, please don’t even offer your opinion.

[Soloist]

I’m so glad the western Nationwiders are better. They would never slap a ban on a repentant, recently excommunicated soul who remembered one more “sin” he wanted to clear up. (He had gambled.) Except they did.

He had voluntarily fessed up at 2am one morning and knew he’d get excommunicated, but he didn’t care as he was free before God. Then a few days later he remembered the stop at the casino. So he fessed that up too. That earned him the ban. Because it proved his repentance wasn’t sincere. If you can’t understand how utterly devastating this would be to a sincere heart, please don’t even offer your opinion.

This is one thing I object to the Conservative Mennonites. If you of your own conviction come forward and confess to sin, struggles to overcome etcetera and they apply an automatic excommunication...

Makes perfect sense when you cover up sin and try to deceive someone about it.

I'm a little confused though, Nationwide doesn't practice the ban, so what exactly are you referring to when you say he was excommunicated and then the slapped the ban on him after he confessed to one more thing?

Sounds to me that he's better off finding another church if that is how his church handled his repentance. Mistakes do happen, but the wounds don't heal quickly at all.