Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

[Ken]

How about this:

America wasn’t founded to make a comfortable homeland for plain people.

William Penn actually did choose to do so, but he was in charge of 1 out of 13 states, and it turns out Ohio became the most comfortable homeland. At America’s founding, Ohio was still not sure if it was French territory or Connecticut.

I strongly disagree with the idea of America-as-manifest-destiny-for-freedom. I don’t think America is somehow superior or special compared to other countries.

Quite so. Especially considering that half the country was really founded as a bastion of slavery.

[Soloist]

How about this:

America wasn’t founded to make a comfortable homeland for plain people.

William Penn actually did choose to do so, but he was in charge of 1 out of 13 states, and it turns out Ohio became the most comfortable homeland. At America’s founding, Ohio was still not sure if it was French territory or Connecticut.

I strongly disagree with the idea of America-as-manifest-destiny-for-freedom. I don’t think America is somehow superior or special compared to other countries.

Quite so. Especially considering that half the country was really founded as a bastion of slavery.

Half? Seriously?

[Ken]

How about this:

America wasn’t founded to make a comfortable homeland for plain people.

William Penn actually did choose to do so, but he was in charge of 1 out of 13 states, and it turns out Ohio became the most comfortable homeland. At America’s founding, Ohio was still not sure if it was French territory or Connecticut.

I strongly disagree with the idea of America-as-manifest-destiny-for-freedom. I don’t think America is somehow superior or special compared to other countries.

Quite so. Especially considering that half the country was really founded as a bastion of slavery.

Half? Seriously?

Well, of the 13 original colonies, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia all had slave-based economies, and as of 1776 about 40% of their combined population was enslaved. Those five southern states represented over half the territory and over half the population of the new nation. Here are the census stats for that period: https://userpages.umbc.edu/~bouton/Hist ... eStats.htm

How would you do the math? Are you saying my estimate is high or low?

[temporal1]

Please remember this thread is about the 1st amendment and how we deal with it as Anabaptists.

Anabaptism exists outside of the 1st amendment. I’d go so far as to say it’s irrelevant. The most obvious example is plain Anabaptism in Canada, which persists despite the lack of religious freedom up there.

What the 1st Amendment gives us is the ability to be conscientious objectors and the ability to exercise [our] faith without negative consequences. It means we have little excuses for not expressing our faith freely and openly.

How about this:
America wasn’t founded to make a comfortable homeland for plain people.

William Penn actually did choose to do so, but he was in charge of 1 out of 13 states, and it turns out Ohio became the most comfortable homeland. At America’s founding, Ohio was still not sure if it was French territory or Connecticut.

I strongly disagree with the idea of America-as-manifest-destiny-for-freedom.
I don’t think America is somehow superior or special compared to other countries.

These last 2 points are interesting, debatable, but (i don’t) see the relevance to the OP.

As the wise Native American i referred to above observed, to paraphrase, possibly it was “manifest destiny” that SOME CULTURE from SOME CONTINENT was bound to find the Americas, and forever alter history. The outcome could have been worse/far worse.
“Hindsight is 20/20.” The slavery situation in Latin/S America was many times that in N Amerca, i venture to guess NA descendents of slavery do not dream of trading places with SA descendents?

2 wrongs do not make 1 right, but taking a stab at balanced history would be impressive.

Between 1502 and 1866, of the 11.2 million Africans taken, only 388,000 arrived in North America,
while the rest went to Brazil, the European colonies in the Caribbean and Spanish territories in Central and South America, in that order. These slaves were brought as early as the 16th and 17th centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Sla...
Slavery in Latin America - Wikipedia

The young U.S. happened to provide, and continues to provide, a place for hope. Humans love hope. Humans can+will endure, sacrifice, survive about anything, when allowed a measure of hope. The Americas, then esp the U.S. and Canada, have attracted migrants of all description - many at great personal sacrifice - for the hope of a better future.

This “indicates” something not found everywhere.
In my view, basically, it boils down to hope.

There is no guarantee the U.S. or Canada will continue as they’re now commonly known.
The majority of civilizations have come+gone in history, many not leaving much behind. No one living today can know what’s ahead.
Slavery is an ancient phenom, occuring on all continents (as i understand it). It continues today.

(i believe) it’s silly disingenuous to deny there have been unique features and history, probably positive+negative.
it’s not unusual for (folks who have managed) to be grateful - no matter continent or culture. many have thrived, many with history of slavery have lived to thrive, it would be abnormal to not be grateful (esp to God) for blessings. scriptures implore us to be grateful. in all circumstances. with Jesus, this is possible!

Jesus represents eternal life. True: No special location required.

[Robert]

Quite so. Especially considering that half the country was really founded as a bastion of slavery.

Whatever the numbers, it was the Bill of Rights including the 1st amendment that allowed for freeing the slaves, but that is a discussion for another thread.

The Bill of Rights was about limiting federal government and empowering the people and the states. The 1st Amendment speaks to individual rights indirectly. The federal government can not restrict or canon a religion, or the practice of it. It is why Anabaptists could come to the US and exercise our unique faith which tends to separate us from the state.

A country that the Amish can take a case to the Supreme Court and win is unique. It is not perfect, but it is unique.

[ohio jones]

Half? Seriously?

Maybe even 3/5.

[Ken]

Wow. I make an offhand remark agreeing with Josh that the United States was not founded as a bastion of freedom and come back to find Temporal1 off and running with an apologist argument about "historical context." And how the American slaves should have been happy because American slavery was not as bad as Brazil or Cuba. And how the American Indians should be happy because westward expansion, the trail of tears, and Indian wars were not as bad as...I don't know....the Belgian Congo.

This is a thread about the first amendment and religious freedom. That's rather like arguing that American Christians should just shut up and be happy because religious freedom in this country is not as bad as Ukraine under Stalin during the Holodomor. Historical context after all. So stop your complaining.

Ideals are all well and good. The Declaration of Independence and Constitution were amazing if flawed documents that are full of ideals. Actual history (as opposed to mythology) is about how well we lived up to those ideals in practice.

[Josh]

America was founded as an association of 13 formerly independent countries.

[temporal1]

Wow. I make an offhand remark agreeing with Josh that the United States was not founded as a bastion of freedom and come back to find Temporal1 off and running with an apologist argument about "historical context." And how the American slaves should have been happy because American slavery was not as bad as Brazil or Cuba. And how the American Indians should be happy because westward expansion, the trail of tears, and Indian wars were not as bad as...I don't know....the Belgian Congo.

This is a thread about the first amendment and religious freedom. That's rather like arguing that American Christians should just shut up and be happy because religious freedom in this country is not as bad as Ukraine under Stalin during the Holodomor. Historical context after all. So stop your complaining.

Ideals are all well and good. The Declaration of Independence and Constitution were amazing if flawed documents that are full of ideals. Actual history (as opposed to mythology) is about how well we lived up to those ideals in practice.

ah. thank you for giving me the credit.
but, i must decline your praise. it’s Jesus Christ, not mythology, who came to offer sweet eternal victory to everyone in all earthly circumstances, not i.

[Soloist]

Well, of the 13 original colonies, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia all had slave-based economies, and as of 1776 about 40% of their combined population was enslaved. Those five southern states represented over half the territory and over half the population of the new nation. Here are the census stats for that period: https://userpages.umbc.edu/~bouton/Hist ... eStats.htm

How would you do the math? Are you saying my estimate is high or low?

I would have said all of them except perhaps Pennsylvania had a fair bit of slaves. I thought you were making a reference to some civil war stuff.

We likely don't disagree at all.