Adherence to Civil Laws

[Ernie]

This is a thread for discussing all things related to Civil Laws, enforcement of such, Christian response to such, comparison to other countries, etc.

That is actually the case with most laws and regulations in a civilized society. Compliance is largely voluntary and depends on law-abiding people to conscientiously follow laws and regulations regardless of whether they will actually ever get caught. Whether it is compliance with the tax code, speed limits, mask laws, OSHA workplace safety, food safety, environmental regulations, or child abuse reporting. The fact that a particular law or regulation doesn't see a lot of vigorous enforcement doesn't really affect its validity.

I don't think I agree with this. Without enforcement, people don't bother keeping the laws.

There are many laws left on the books that are never officially removed. Some become obsolete and no one follows them.

Other laws become somewhat obsolete, but removing it would give citizens the idea that the opposite can now be done and they don't want to communicate that message. So because they are somewhat obsolete, it is easier to just stop enforcing the law.

Then there are a host of laws that can put the small owner out of business if he tried keeping all of them. Governments go after the big companies where the majority of their concerns lie, and sometimes give the small business owner a pass.
Here is an example of such a law. Most small businesses in PA probably don't even know this law exists and I'm not aware that it is being enforced.
https://extension.psu.edu/does-your-bus ... fly-permit

That's both the privilege and responsibility of living in a free society and not a police state. And when there is widespread non-compliance with a particular law or regulation it is usually time for the authorities to crack down. I don't know what else you can do.

What if the authorities think it is good to keep a law on the books as an encouragement, but don't plan to enforce it? I think this happens in every state, all the time.

[Soloist]

Romans 13:5-7 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

1 Peter 2:13-15 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

[steve-in-kville]

What if the authorities think it is good to keep a law on the books as an encouragement, but don't plan to enforce it? I think this happens in every state, all the time.

Or, what if a company has an employee handbook with rules that aren't really enforced... until its convenient for management?

Just food for thought

[Soloist]

Or, what if a company has an employee handbook with rules that aren't really enforced... until its convenient for management?

Just food for thought

Or if you are the goody two shoes who thinks everyone actually follows the infection control protocols in the Navy until he realized how reporting violations makes an lot of enemies.

[Ernie]

Romans 13:5-7 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

1 Peter 2:13-15 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

I try to subject myself to those ordinances that are expected of me. What do you do?

[Ken]

Well yes, there is such a thing as old and obsolete regulations. One of the first things I was assigned to do when I started working for the National Marine Fisheries Service was to scrub out of US law all the old whaling regulations that had detailed requirements for reporting of whale catches, requirements for whaling stations, and that sort of thing. They weren't doing any harm because whaling had been outlawed many decades earlier. But they were cluttering up the Code of Federal Regulations, and Al Gore's "Reinventing Government" effort wanted to tout how many pages of Federal Regulations they had eliminated. So it got done. You should be equally skeptical when the Trump Administration touts how many regulations it has gotten rid of. The first thing they do with that sort of effort is cull out all the low hanging fruit so to speak, of obsolete stuff that no longer has any applicability.

But that is different from meaningful laws that simply rely on voluntary compliance. For example, It is illegal in most areas to dispose of waste oil by pouring it out into the ditch or storm drain or back yard. I remember my Dad used to always pour out or waste oil on the gravel driveway. Now if I change my oil I pour it back into the containers and bring it to the disposal tank behind the auto parts store. Does the EPA or State Department of Ecology have pollution cops patrolling around looking for people who improperly disposed of their oil? Of course not. I doubt anyone has ever been busted for it in this state unless it was an egregious industrial type violation. And I'm sure many just dump it out, or even put it down the drain or into a storm sewer. But enough Americans do actually comply without the threat of penalty for it to actually make a difference in the amount of nonpoint source oil pollution in our streams and water systems. All those sorts of voluntary efforts combined make our streams and rivers cleaner and healthier for fish than they have been in decades. I would call that a success.

Unenforced workplace rules are a different topic. In my experience those are usually used to weed out undesired employees. If they really want you gone they an always "catch" you checking Facebook on your work computer or taking extra time at lunch or any of a hundred other little things that go ignored for good employees. That's life in America. The problem is that your employer wants you gone, not the workplace rules. And there are always shades of gray. Most employers would not care if you check Facebook on your break. But they aren't going to be happy if you are running a full time Ebay business from your cubical.

[Soloist]

Romans 13:5-7 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

1 Peter 2:13-15 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

I try to subject myself to those ordinances that are expected of me. What do you do?

I follow all laws I am aware of regardless of enforcement. With the exception, if they violate God's law.
I'm not saying I never speed, but if I make it a point in my mind to not go past the speed limit, then if I through complacency do, I'm not getting pulled over. Compare this to someone who says "they do not enforce speed limits as its not worth it to them under 5 miles an hour, or under 10 miles an hour, so I will go X speed and be fine". My mother used to say the police wouldn't pull you over until you did 13+ over the speed limit.
I know you can reference archaic laws on the books as unenforced and if you are comfortable before God disobeying those... I am not.
One thing you should be aware of is how seekers find inconsistent applications of standards, it grates on them and often they make the mistake of going too far or telling the wrong person if they try to do likewise.
Standard says "3 quarter length sleeves" so we have men wearing short sleeves since thats only applying to women. Or we have women with elbow length sleeves. We can talk about this as a guideline for people to be close to, but that is absurd to expect someone who comes in to understand the unspoken nuances of the church "law" as Mennonites interpret them. Maybe you would be uncomfortable with this sort of nonsense but its exactly the same thing.
I said when I joined that I would follow the standards of the church, now is that subject to my interpretations of what was meant? because I can easily make justifiable exceptions all day long or explain away certain text as not really meaning that.
The exception to my stance is the standard of photography. When I saw it wasn't being followed by anyone, I asked the Bishop who told me this rule doesn't apply anymore. So... if you go to your authorities and they say you can go 5 over and its not breaking the law... good on you, but I doubt they would ever do that in writing.

This is very close to the same argument about Scriptural teaching and I caution you to consider what you actually are saying.

[barnhart]

I can see Ken's point, laws are generally effective when they reflect what the people believe and are willing to submit to voluntarily.

[RZehr]

Many Mennonites find it awesomely convenient to hold unenforced obsolete laws as reason to say we only are obligated to obey laws that are enforced.
And then we confuse ourselves by thinking that because a law isn’t enforced, then we have no moral obligation to obey it. And from there we further confuse ourselves by conflating not getting caught, with non-enforcement. Many cases it is not a matter of obsolete law or unenforcement at all.
It is a position of confusion. Sometimes we think of laws as we often do church standards, from a position grace, forgiveness and irrelevance. See our historical positions on mandatory reporting and turning in crimes.
Meanwhile the unbelievers shake their head at us as they dutifully follow the law.

Do you really have to have a personal threat of a fine or punishment to make you obey? Is there no such thing as honoring? We appreciate employee who honor their bosses or companies wishes, however employees who are always being technical with rules and pushing boundaries are a weariness to the flesh.

Are there gray areas? Yes. Also following each law is not of equal importance, speeding by 1 mph is not equal to dumping your companies trash in the river each month.

Do I always follow perfectly every law? Absolutely not. But I’ll not justify myself by saying that it isn’t being enforced on me so it doesn’t matter.

[Ernie]

One thing you should be aware of is how seekers find inconsistent applications of standards, it grates on them and often they make the mistake of going too far or telling the wrong person if they try to do likewise.
Standard says "3 quarter length sleeves" so we have men wearing short sleeves since thats only applying to women. Or we have women with elbow length sleeves. We can talk about this as a guideline for people to be close to, but that is absurd to expect someone who comes in to understand the unspoken nuances of the church "law" as Mennonites interpret them. Maybe you would be uncomfortable with this sort of nonsense but its exactly the same thing.
I said when I joined that I would follow the standards of the church, now is that subject to my interpretations of what was meant?

No, I think we should keep whatever church standards we agree to keep.

That is different from civil laws. I never agreed to keep the civil laws. I was born here and I accept the rules for living here. I do try to comply with civil laws that are expected of citizens.