Kingdom Christian and Charity Movements

[ohio jones]

In my experience, it's a little unusual in any denomination (not just Mennonites) for someone to "come in and perform baptisms or communion services" -- those are usually done by the local pastors.

[Ken]

In my experience, it's a little unusual in any denomination (not just Mennonites) for someone to "come in and perform baptisms or communion services" -- those are usually done by the local pastors.

More than just "a little unusual" I expect it is pretty much unheard of in every denomination.

I think Josh is just wrong. Performing your own baptisms and communions according to your own standards does not equate to holding a "one true church" doctrine. It just means that you choose to do it your way in your own church but recognize that others have their own ways.

[Judas Maccabeus]

The issue I have is that they appear to have an intent to use the school to proselytize students into their movement, while all the time not making either their plans or their true doctrinal position clear. IF that is what they intend to do, it should be crystal clear to all. If they really have major doctrinal and practice differences with the conservative mennonite movement they should make that clear to all, especially the leadership of churches that send students there.

If the school did not exist, and they were not actively recruiting from among my community, I would not be seriously concerned about what they are up to. As it is there is much about their doctrinal and teaching position that we really do not know about. I will say, a group that has a large amount of doctrinal information that is only available to insiders is almost behaving like a cult. They need to put it our for all to see.

J.M.

JM...I've had pretty close contact with Sattler over this past year (most directly with and through Dean Taylor) and I absolutely don't have the impression the FOTW is proselytizing conservative Anabaptists. If anything, both Dean and Finny have indicated to me that they are as a college trying to come alongside of conservative Anabaptists, and involve more of them directly in the work - and I have found them bot to be VERY affirming and respctful of the CA roots and calling of their students. It should be noted that FOTW comes out of a movement that has historically been decidedly bent against denominationalism, so in that sense, if they are guilty of anything, it is in a sincere desire to raise up and equip radical Christ followers whose loyalty is to Christ and his Kingdom above all else. Personally, I can't fault them for that.

In the long run, I think their future as a college lies in a mix between Conservative Anabaptists (forming the foundation) and what we used to call "seeker families" - often independent, educationally minded homeschooling families who have awaken to a radical high-commitment Christianity that run's counter to the dominant culture (a generation ago it would have been the Dietrich Bonhoeffer crowd, back in my day it would have been those influenced by folks like Keith Green...today maybe followers of folks like Francis Chan).

Dan:

I think you missed this exchange back a bit. Pardon my ham handed cut and paste:

joshuabgood wrote:
I hear you JM, and you are right in that, were it not for CA scholars, Sattler would pretty much lose 90% of their student body. They simply haven't managed yet to appeal broadly. Simultaneously there is obviously much they like about "our" the CA, product.
Josh wrote:
Interestingly, their original vision was to try to "market" conservative Anabaptism to evangelical background people. So far they've managed to have 2 non-CA people enroll (as of the last conversation I had, during AIC 2019).
Ernie wrote:
Yes, originally during the design stage, Kuruvilla said he wasn't planning on recruiting CA students. He was going to recruit among the fans of Francis Chan, etc. Folks who were disappointed that their parents were rooting for Trump and were looking for a third way.
Once it was time to get students, there was heavy recruiting among Anabaptists. Then Kuruvilla explained that it was actually good to start with a CA student body, as it helped establish the kind of two-kingdom culture that he wanted to see at Sattler. At this point, I'm not sure what base they plan to target in the future.
Josh:
Instead, Sattler seems to be on a mission to evangelise and "convert" students to FOTW's way of thinking, and then send them back to their home communities as change agents.
Ernie:
Yes, either that or keep them and use them in FOTW endeavors.

Above is on Page 7 for reference

Yes, I have heard the same denials. I suspect that in Dean's case, they are likely sincere. But if Ernie does not have it right, no one does. Between them being closed lipped and occasionally downright evasive about what they believe, to starting a new "conference" it really smells bad. Parsing the division between church and school is just about impossible. All the students will almost certainly be discipled into FOTW thinking, no matter what the school says. There are just no alternatives. It took me like 5 minutes to pick up the contempt in which they hold conservatives mennonites in. To say they will not be used in FOTW endeavors would require an almost baffling degree of nativity.

My concerns are just what DO they actually believe, and has that been accurately communicated to the leadership of the churches that are being asked to trust them with their young people? Until the answer is yes I cannot endorse this. So far, the answer is no. Every layer that is pealed back is more disturbing than the last. "Fivefold Ministry" and designating people "Apostles" (see above) is highly controversial at best.

Until they publish what they believe, and do it publicly I cannot endorse this, and I will go as far as to say, I think they are more Stone-Campbell than Anabaptist. I doubt that many CA pastors would support this as an educational alternative, but at the very least they, as well as the rest of us should know.

J.M.

[ohio jones]

To say they will not be used in FOTW endeavors would require an almost baffling degree of nativity.

I must say, J.M., you weren't born yesterday.

[Judas Maccabeus]

To say they will not be used in FOTW endeavors would require an almost baffling degree of nativity.

I must say, J.M., you weren't born yesterday.

If you saw how bad my spelling is without a spellcheck, you would be shocked that I ever got through university. I almost did not for that reason. I barely got a C in freshman comp.

And no, I was not born yesterday. I have, in fact, just retired.....at least from my “medical “ job.

J.M.

[Ken]

Yes, I have heard the same denials. I suspect that in Dean's case, they are likely sincere. But if Ernie does not have it right, no one does. Between them being closed lipped and occasionally downright evasive about what they believe, to starting a new "conference" it really smells bad. Parsing the division between church and school is just about impossible. All the students will almost certainly be discipled into FOTW thinking, no matter what the school says. There are just no alternatives. It took me like 5 minutes to pick up the contempt in which they hold conservatives mennonites in. To say they will not be used in FOTW endeavors would require an almost baffling degree of nativity.

This seems especially true because they have chosen to locate in a city where there aren't actually much in the way of alternatives. They have a captive audience in a way that wouldn't exist if they were located in a place like Lancaster PA.

One suspects that this is to some degree deliberate.

It's not like Boston is some sort of academic desert when it comes to higher education. No one in their right mind would ever survey the country and conclude that Boston is the place most lacking in higher education options and the most fertile ground for planting a new college.

[joshuabgood]

I dont have a problem with Boston as the spot for an Anabaptist college. The main reason it is there is because that is where Finny lives and works. And he believes more Kingdom Centric folks should be in cities. So it makes sense.

I really don't think the proselytization fears are needed.

I also like the idea of my son getting out of Lancaster for a few years. Lancaster is insular enough.

I guess bottom line I am not worried about the finer points of the Eucharist theology. Further, I think as a movement we have some things we can learn from the Finnys and Deans of the world.

[Ernie]

Yes, I have heard the same denials. I suspect that in Dean's case, they are likely sincere.

Yes. A few years ago Dean told me something like this, "I have decided to make my home among the ethnic Anabaptists. These are the people I know and love and work with. Others like Finny have decided to start something fresh on their own."
A couple years later when Dean went to Sattler, he believed he was being "hired to move Sattler in a more Anabaptist direction." Part of moving in a more Anabaptist direction is learning to earn the respect of Anabaptist leaders and communities. I've seen Dean taking steps in this direction the last year. It still remains to be seen how much credibility they will be able to establish with CA's.

In spite of my critiques of Sattler and FOTW, I've told Finny that I am for him, and want to see him succeed. My critiques are not for the purpose of tearing him down. One of the reasons I want FOTW and Sattler to succeed is that we have very few kingdom Christian options to offer people besides the CA world. There are a lot of people who will never be able to feel at home in the CA world and I would like other options to recommend to them.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I guess bottom line I am not worried about the finer points of the Eucharist theology.

You mean the ones that your forebearers were willing to die for?

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Yes, I have heard the same denials. I suspect that in Dean's case, they are likely sincere.

Yes. A few years ago Dean told me something like this, "I have decided to make my home among the ethnic Anabaptists. These are the people I know and love and work with. Others like Finny have decided to start something fresh on their own."
A couple years later when Dean went to Sattler, he believed he was being "hired to move Sattler in a more Anabaptist direction." Part of moving in a more Anabaptist direction is learning to earn the respect of Anabaptist leaders and communities. I've seen Dean taking steps in this direction the last year. It still remains to be seen how much credibility they will be able to establish with CA's.

In spite of my critiques of Sattler and FOTW, I've told Finny that I am for him, and want to see him succeed. My critiques are not for the purpose of tearing him down. One of the reasons I want FOTW and Sattler to succeed is that we have very few kingdom Christian options to offer people besides the CA world. There are a lot of people who will never be able to feel at home in the CA world and I would like other options to recommend to them.

I would be far less concerned if there was another church for students to go that was Mennonite. It is youth being discipled in what is by all appearances a Stone Campbell church that has displaced hostility to mennonites. Of course, we do not know what they really believe, which heightens my concern. "Fivefold Ministry" and living apostles are way outside of what reasonably be seen as mennonite doctrine. I would say living apostles is throughly unbiblical as well.

J.M.