Evangelism, Empathy, and Christian Nationalism...

[Josh]

On capital punishment, Jesus was asked about that and his answer was clear. Only one without sin is qualified to administer it. The sins deserving of death may not have changed, but the New Testament teaches "the wages of sin are death" and that we are all sinners. The penalty we give will be the penalty we will get.

Jesus was never clear on this. He simply said that the Pharisees were not fit to mete out punishment, presumably because they were guilty of the same things.

There is none, zero, principle in the NT against governments using capital punishment. This is a fantasy and invention of the left.

[JimFoxvog]

Jesus was never clear on this. He simply said that the Pharisees were not fit to mete out punishment, presumably because they were guilty of the same things.

That's quite a presumption to base permission to do differently from what Jesus taught. I expect there were a number of Pharisees there that had not committed adultery. Jesus did not say "he who is without this sin" but "he who is without sin" should cast the first stone.

This is a fantasy and invention of the left.

This has nothing to do with "left" or "right"; it is about obeying the teachings of Jesus. On some issues the left comes closer and on others, the right comes closer. We should ignore these labels and camps and follow Jesus--and we will be condemned by both camps.

[Ken]

There is none, zero, principle in the NT against governments using capital punishment. This is a fantasy and invention of the left.

Actually, unlike the Old Testament, there is basically zero instruction, principles, or laws set of out of ANY KIND in the New Testament regarding the administration of government. None whatsoever. So whatever you say about Capital Punishment is also true of:

Abortion
Gay Marriage and LGBT rights
Racism
Immigration
Freedom of Speech and freedom of religion
Right to bear arms and self defense

And pretty much every other pet public policy issue of BOTH the left and right.

[Bootstrap]

Maybe our definitions of "permitted' is different. I do not know of any place where the OT law gives specific permission to have multiple wives. I'm not aware of any OT laws that tell men how to deal with multiple wives. That's where I'm coming from.

The people that the Old Testament presents as heroes often had multiple wives, and the text does not indicate in any way that this was wrong. To me, that implies that it was not wrong for them at that time, i.e. that it was permitted.

Maybe God allowed polygamy to show us that it does not work. Remember Abram's wife Hagar.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman Gal. 4:30

Quite possibly. It's clear that NT believers should not practice polygamy now. Or stone our children to death if they are disobedient. Or require believers to be circumcised. The Mosaic Law does not have the same status for Christians today that it had for Jews back then.

[Bootstrap]

On capital punishment, Jesus was asked about that and his answer was clear. Only one without sin is qualified to administer it. The sins deserving of death may not have changed, but the New Testament teaches "the wages of sin are death" and that we are all sinners. The penalty we give will be the penalty we will get.

Jesus was never clear on this. He simply said that the Pharisees were not fit to mete out punishment, presumably because they were guilty of the same things.

But Jesus was not guilty of any sin. And he did not say, "OK, now it's my turn, let me throw the stone". And he did not say, "OK, now let me turn you over to the government".

As Russell Moore points out, a whole lot of very sinful people are promoting fake public righteousness and casting stones in the political sphere, and Christians are supporting them. That doesn't make us look more like Jesus.

[Bootstrap]

I am going to keep posting things on the original topic of this thread, taken from the book mentioned in the original post. Seriously, I wonder if we could take all those other topics elsewhere, it can feel like a filibuster of this topic sometimes. Anyone want to actually discuss what Russell Moore is saying?

I think you were engaging quite heavily with Josh on some subjects that are now apparently off topic. I don't understand. Were you filibustering too?

You may have missed this, but the biblical teaching on refugees and homosexuality is pretty central to what Russell Moore is writing about. And the article in the original post is about the book I am quoting from.

Ten or fifteen years ago, most Christian across the board agreed that the Bible teaches Christians to care for refugees. That has changed. Not because the Bible changed.

The Bible is clearly against gay sex, but in the New Testament, it is only mentioned in lists of sins that include other sins we also need to take seriously. I think it's wrong to single it out and say that's the only one that matters, and I think it's wrong to ignore the importance of sins like slander and false witness. The hypocritical, self-righteous indignation of modern American politics is not a model for Christians to follow.

When Christians sound like the people who drive American culture wars, we do not sound like Jesus.

[Josh]

There is none, zero, principle in the NT against governments using capital punishment. This is a fantasy and invention of the left.

Actually, unlike the Old Testament, there is basically zero instruction, principles, or laws set of out of ANY KIND in the New Testament regarding the administration of government. None whatsoever. So whatever you say about Capital Punishment is also true of:

Abortion
Gay Marriage and LGBT rights
Racism
Immigration
Freedom of Speech and freedom of religion
Right to bear arms and self defense

And pretty much every other pet public policy issue of BOTH the left and right.

Yes. The NT’s purpose is not for those who want to design a certain kind of government.

[Josh]

You may have missed this, but the biblical teaching on refugees and homosexuality is pretty central to what Russell Moore is writing about. And the article in the original post is about the book I am quoting from.

Ten or fifteen years ago, most Christian across the board agreed that the Bible teaches Christians to care for refugees.

I think that Christians should help refugees.

That doesn’t mean that governments should or need to.

It also doesn’t mean that Christians should help and enable people seeking better economic opportunities or who want to make more money.

That has changed. Not because the Bible changed.

The main thing that changed was calling economic migrants “refugees” and governments and NGOs trying to resettle such migrants in order to force demographic changes on people. That’s very different from any commands in the Bible.

The Bible is clearly against gay sex, but in the New Testament, it is only mentioned in lists of sins that include other sins we also need to take seriously. I think it's wrong to single it out and say that's the only one that matters, and I think it's wrong to ignore the importance of sins like slander and false witness. The hypocritical, self-righteous indignation of modern American politics is not a model for Christians to follow.

When Christians sound like the people who drive American culture wars, we do not sound like Jesus.

Except the culture wars are explicitly being fought against an American Christian culture.

[Ken]

Except the culture wars are explicitly being fought against an American Christian culture.

Actually it is the opposite. The culture wars are explicitly being fought by a Christian Nationalist minority against a majority culture (both secular and Christian).

There is no culture war issue that has majority support in this country. They are all about rallying a political base for political reasons.

Abortion, all the “anti-wokeness” nonsense, CRT, DEI, anti-gay rights, etc. etc. All of them are minority positions in this country, even among Christians.

[Nomad]

There is none, zero, principle in the NT against governments using capital punishment. This is a fantasy and invention of the left.

Actually, unlike the Old Testament, there is basically zero instruction, principles, or laws set of out of ANY KIND in the New Testament regarding the administration of government. None whatsoever. So whatever you say about Capital Punishment is also true of:

Abortion
Gay Marriage and LGBT rights
Racism
Immigration
Freedom of Speech and freedom of religion
Right to bear arms and self defense

And pretty much every other pet public policy issue of BOTH the left and right.

It's only "true" if you chose to take every sin scenario and lump them all together. Sin is sin but not all the subjects you listed are relatable. They are delt with in different ways in the OT and the NT.