omnium-gatherum part deux

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
temporal1

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by temporal1 »

i’m having an “Elizabeth Warren” moment. :-|

i found a family link back to Elizabeth Anne Boleyn, 1440-1510, Aunt of Queen Anne Boleyn.
because there is royalty involved, more records were kept, these records go back into the 800’s before ending. that’s a long way back.

some records are in France and Flanders-Belgium. this might be a clue about the Scandinavian DNA.

this is through my father’s mother’s side.
until this year, we knew nothing of his ancestry, did not expect to know.

now i wonder how long these memories were kept? people are very good at forgetting. even when vows are made to the contrary. “we will never forget.” is this the most broken promise of all?

a lot of history was deliberately forgotten, when people migrated to the Colonies, then to the U.S.
many wanted a fresh start, without the “baggage” of the Old World. this was a big part of the new culture. i empathize. lots happened in the Old World that was wrong, and tragic.

i’m pretty sure my parents would be “speechless” to learn of French connections.

neither had any regard for the French. or, Irish, or Italians, et al.
my father knew his family came, at least in part, from Germany. he had the well-known German stoicism about him. he didn’t care for Germans, either. :lol: he was hopeful for the U.S.
he was not guilty of making false gods out of peoples/cultures. :P

“Anne, with an “e.” :D
Anne of Green Gables
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MaxPC

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by MaxPC »

temporal1 wrote:
a lot of history was deliberately forgotten, when people migrated to the Colonies, then to the U.S.
many wanted a fresh start, without the “baggage” of the Old World. this was a big part of the new culture. i empathize. lots happened in the Old World that was wrong, and tragic.

Every now and again I am tickled by the whole DNA search thing. When we take on "the new man" none of it matters any more.

[bible]Colossians 3,9-11[/bible]

[bible]Ephesians 4, 22-24[/bible]

[bible]2 Corinthians 5,17[/bible]
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temporal1

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by temporal1 »

MaxPC wrote:
temporal1 wrote:
a lot of history was deliberately forgotten, when people migrated to the Colonies, then to the U.S.
many wanted a fresh start, without the “baggage” of the Old World. this was a big part of the new culture. i empathize. lots happened in the Old World that was wrong, and tragic.

Every now and again I am tickled by the whole DNA search thing. When we take on "the new man" none of it matters any more.

[bible]Colossians 3,9-11[/bible]

[bible]Ephesians 4, 22-24[/bible]

[bible]2 Corinthians 5,17[/bible]
i agree. “all things (are allowed) in moderation.”
1 Corinthians 6:12
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-12.htm
11 And that is what some of you were.
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

12 “Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything.

13 “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food,” but God will destroy them both.
The body is not intended for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.…


This is from the Commentary:
..”All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.--
There is a verbal contrast in the Greek here which can scarcely be rendered fully in English.
The Greek words for "unlawful" and "be brought under the power of" are cognate words.
What the Apostle says is, "All things are lawful for me, but I am not the one to allow them therefore to become a law over me."
There is such a thing as becoming the very slave of liberty itself.
If we sacrifice the power of choice which is implied in the thought of liberty, we cease to be free;
we are brought under the power of that which should be in our power.” ..
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temporal1

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by temporal1 »

[to complete above ^^] -
In heaven, it will not matter, at all. :D
On earth, we ignore history at our own peril. Without question, we are acutely vulnerable to naively repeating negative history. This includes the history of religion(s) an important topic on earth.

one of my “driving” interests in genealogy, then, DNA, was curiosity about,
where does my family fit into Anabaptist history?
perhaps, my meager (hack) version of the “Mennonite Game.” :P
thus, i update here. (it’s not as random as it probably appears) :lol:

logic told me, paths must have crossed, but, where, and, how?
so far, the closest i’ve come is finding early Quakers in England/Ireland, that moved to Pennsylvania. i was shocked to find early Mormons. do not know what to make of the Boleyn connection.

but the early questions i had about, “what was my family doing in history?” - “ ‘cause, they had to be somewhere, doing something” .. is getting a little filled out. history is interesting; finding any sort of personal connection, helps make it more palpable.

people who lived in history were as real as we are .. but, it’s so easy for each living generation to “feel” they are the “most real,” “the smartest/best,” or, indeed, the only generation that matters.
i have been there. just wasn’t convinced it was accurate.

remembering my elders is enough to convince me, no, we are not better-than, smarter-than!

Omnipotent God does not so struggle! - :D
“we are weak, but, He is strong.”
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JimFoxvog

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by JimFoxvog »

MaxPC wrote:Every now and again I am tickled by the whole DNA search thing. When we take on "the new man" none of it matters any more.
Of course it doesn't matter on a deeper level. Some of us are interested in history. For some, when they learn the diversity of their backgrounds, it might make them more tolerant of diverse people groups.
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temporal1

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by temporal1 »

JimFoxvog wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Every now and again I am tickled by the whole DNA search thing. When we take on "the new man" none of it matters any more.
Of course it doesn't matter on a deeper level. Some of us are interested in history. For some, when they learn the diversity of their backgrounds, it might make them more tolerant of diverse people groups.
i believe there has been a change in (consciousness?) since the advent of DNA, possibly starting with the “out of Africa” theories that came along, now, 15-ish? years ago? that all humanity began in Africa?

of course, questions remain, new findings, new questions arise.
but, i think there has been change that probably cannot be quantified.

in my DNA, i was fully expecting a broader mix. possibly from Africa, i was “pretty sure” about some Native American connections. so far, zero! :lol:

i’m really surprised. and, puzzled.

it’s not all settled. as more people participate, there will be ongoing changes.

going forward, for my family, results will be very mixed. my overall living family has now married/adopted quite a lot cross-culturally, DNA trees will reflect that.

i’m not sure if i’ve known of anyone who was not surprised by their DNA results.
some have been shocked. i believe there are warnings that results may be shocking.
so. proceed with caution. :)

even before DNA, i had a couple of adult friends who were shocked to learn, at their mothers’ deaths, that they had been adopted as babies, but were never told. there is no way to prepare for this.
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temporal1

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by temporal1 »

Charlemagne. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! :shock:
https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/his ... harlemagne
Charlemagne (742-814),
or Charles the Great,
was king of the Franks, 768-814,
and emperor of the West, 800-814.

He founded the Holy Roman Empire,
stimulated European economic and political life,
and fostered the cultural revival known as the Carolingian Renaissance.
He had a large family. :P

This (below) is interesting, written in a somewhat irreverant, not overly scientific-y way.
Credible points about how DNA works, and doesn’t. (Don’t take yourself too seriously.) :mrgreen:

Opinion / Genetics -
“So you’re related to Charlemagne? You and every other living European” ...
Adam Rutherford
https://www.theguardian.com/science/com ... rutherford
.. This is merely a numbers game. You have two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on.

But this ancestral expansion is not borne back ceaselessly into the past. If it were, your family tree when Charlemagne was Le Grand Fromage would harbour more than a billion ancestors – more people than were alive then.

What this means is that pedigrees begin to fold in on themselves a few generations back,
:arrow: and become less arboreal, and more web-like.

In 2013, geneticists Peter Ralph and Graham Coop showed that all Europeans are descended from exactly the same people.

Basically, everyone alive in the ninth century who left descendants is the ancestor of every living European today, including Charlemagne, Drogo, Pippin and Hugh. Quel dommage. ..
:)
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temporal1

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by temporal1 »

Memory Lane. Reminded of my first MN post. :)
Welcome to MennoNet / Page 3
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 2&p=92#p92
Gene wrote:
Verify my intent? This is reminiscent of questions a protective father may direct to the prospective suitor of a young daughter, or even an old daughter, though I suspect, (admittedly I can only speculate, having no offspring of the feminine persuasion myself and being a bit long in the tooth to remedy the situation) that the passage of time may bring an easing of the paternal restrictive instincts and perhaps even introduce a bit of desperation as in "Ain't this child ever gonna leave?". But what do I know? Except I would harbor grave reservations regarding a man who carries a hammer and a plunger. In a picture voluntarily released for public observation.

In spite of the great loss of historical data of near canonical inspiration the collapse of its predecessor represents, this forum represents the opportunity to have all the same pointless arguments that were carried on before without the chance for those with encyclopedic knowledge of every thing ever posted to immediately link to the discussion previously had on any given subject. This means we can spend days and perhaps months advocating for some favorite, perhaps obscure but still dearly held, theological point, honing the wording of our argument till any sentient individual presented with our flawless verbiage and impeccable logic will immediately fall to their knees in awe at our brilliance.

The concession must be made that "our" in this context may be a tad presumptuous considering that, at least as I understand it, this is an audition of sorts and mocking the administration is probably not seen as a good way to curry favor with the one with the power of life and death. At least as regards this forum.
i follow Gene around. 8-)
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temporal1

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by temporal1 »

Page 6 -
temporal1 wrote:i’ve found “this guy” in Switzerland. :)
his paper trail ends there, at least, for now.

Hans Hacob Wottli (Wohttli)
“Born 1640, Zofingen, Bern, Switzerland”

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Wottli-3

i am not yet searching in earnest, only casually. evenso, interesting info pops up.

still, no Scandinavian names or connections (that i recognize.)
new names in Germany, France, Switzerland .. Scotland, too.
Gameo - Bern, Switzerland


ok. it’s possble, Mr Wottli-his family may have been in Bern during busy times for early Anabaptists.
so far, i have no further clue as to what he was doing/thinking, if he was aware of the struggles?

would “everyone” in those times, esp in that location, have known? my guess is, no.

(judging by my life experience) a lot of people can be fully unaware of lots of things happening around them. even in today’s “plugged-in” culture. “news” is about the exceptional, unusual. the ordinary is taken for granted.

plus, with a name like, “Wottli,” there are many alternative spellings.
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ohio jones

Re: omnium-gatherum part deux

Post by ohio jones »

Zofingen is now in Canton Aargau; back then the Unteraargau region of Canton Bern. Pretty remote from the city of Bern, actually. Protestant area with some Anabaptists during that time. Not really on the flight path from Basel to Zurich, but probably visible under clear conditions.
temporal1 wrote:would “everyone” in those times, esp in that location, have known? my guess is, no.
My guess is, yes.

In those days, every church was expected to read the edict against the Anabaptists from the pulpit at least annually. And every upstanding citizen went to church, unless they were deathly ill, pregnant, or Anabaptist (in which case they were not a citizen, let alone upstanding). But many of the common people knew their Anabaptist neighbors, respected them, and were not interested in turning them in to the Täuferjägers, even for a cash reward. And many of the officials, especially in areas far from Bern, ignored enforcement or did a half-hearted job at best.
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