Bunny Trails

[joshuabgood]

So the question in my mind is, Does a person need to pursue the arts in the manner everyone else does, or can they think outside of the traditional music career box and still have a rich musical life experience?

Well...can they pursue housing construction like everyone does, or shed building, or retail sales, or heavy equipment sales, or hardware stores, or restaurant development, or robotic farming, or mechanized excavating, or marketing, or financial institutions, or etc etc?

That is what feels hard for some folks. Some gifts are recognized and supported, and others looked on as elitist or showy. But no one gripes about a business striving for excellence or high performance. Or competing hard in the market place. Or staying ahead of the curve with fashion/art in construction, finance etc.

Folks don't label them elitist. They are often compensated at the highest levels. And i dont begrudge that. Let's also support the arts.

[JohnH]

So the question in my mind is, Does a person need to pursue the arts in the manner everyone else does, or can they think outside of the traditional music career box and still have a rich musical life experience?

Well...can they pursue housing construction like everyone does, or shed building, or retail sales, or heavy equipment sales, or hardware stores, or restaurant development, or robotic farming, or mechanized excavating, or marketing, or financial institutions, or etc etc?

That is what feels hard for some folks. Some gifts are recognized and supported, and others looked on as elitist or showy. But no one gripes about a business striving for excellence or high performance. Or competing hard in the market place. Or staying ahead of the curve with fashion/art in construction, finance etc.

Folks don't label them elitist. They are often compensated at the highest levels. And i dont begrudge that. Let's also support the arts.

No. Plain people expect those fields to be pursued in a quite different and often more limited fashion.

[joshuabgood]

So the question in my mind is, Does a person need to pursue the arts in the manner everyone else does, or can they think outside of the traditional music career box and still have a rich musical life experience?

Well...can they pursue housing construction like everyone does, or shed building, or retail sales, or heavy equipment sales, or hardware stores, or restaurant development, or robotic farming, or mechanized excavating, or marketing, or financial institutions, or etc etc?

That is what feels hard for some folks. Some gifts are recognized and supported, and others looked on as elitist or showy. But no one gripes about a business striving for excellence or high performance. Or competing hard in the market place. Or staying ahead of the curve with fashion/art in construction, finance etc.

Folks don't label them elitist. They are often compensated at the highest levels. And i dont begrudge that. Let's also support the arts.

No. Plain people expect those fields to be pursued in a quite different and often more limited fashion.

Interesting, that hasn't really been my perspective. I usually see state of the art merchandising, internet platforms, video informational, brochures, marketing, etc. Bigger businesses are usually described as God's blessing of the business, regular business development courses through Lencioni, GLS, Disc, etc etc are considered worthy endeavors in pursuit of excellence. Books by Maxwell, Collins, etc are the guideposts.

[JohnH]

Interesting, that hasn't really been my perspective. I usually see state of the art merchandising, internet platforms, video informational, brochures, marketing, etc. Bigger businesses are usually described as God's blessing of the business, regular business development courses through Lencioni, GLS, Disc, etc etc are considered worthy endeavors in pursuit of excellence. Books by Maxwell, Collins, etc are the guideposts.

Spend some time around actually conservative Anabaptists as opposed to the least conservative people who still begrudgingly will make their wife wear a jeans skirt to church on Sunday.

[AnthonyMartin]

Interesting, that hasn't really been my perspective. I usually see state of the art merchandising, internet platforms, video informational, brochures, marketing, etc. Bigger businesses are usually described as God's blessing of the business, regular business development courses through Lencioni, GLS, Disc, etc etc are considered worthy endeavors in pursuit of excellence. Books by Maxwell, Collins, etc are the guideposts.

Spend some time around actually conservative Anabaptists as opposed to the least conservative people who still begrudgingly will make their wife wear a jeans skirt to church on Sunday.

I guess Eastern, Hope, Pilgrim, Southeastern, don’t qualify. We just don’t get it joshuabgood. I’m not sure, some of the most state of the art business and promo I know are Mid Atlantic and more conservative. I don’t think they make their wives wear jean skirts to church on Sunday….

[JohnH]

Interesting, that hasn't really been my perspective. I usually see state of the art merchandising, internet platforms, video informational, brochures, marketing, etc. Bigger businesses are usually described as God's blessing of the business, regular business development courses through Lencioni, GLS, Disc, etc etc are considered worthy endeavors in pursuit of excellence. Books by Maxwell, Collins, etc are the guideposts.

Spend some time around actually conservative Anabaptists as opposed to the least conservative people who still begrudgingly will make their wife wear a jeans skirt to church on Sunday.

I guess Eastern, Hope, Pilgrim, Southeastern, don’t qualify. We just don’t get it joshuabgood. I’m not sure, some of the most state of the art business and promo I know are Mid Atlantic and more conservative. I don’t think they make their wives wear jean skirts to church on Sunday….

There are many plain Anabaptist groups where trying to make your business as big as possible is not seen as virtuous, and where hiring slick marketers is also frowned on. Some Amish groups actually forbid their members from going to "business development" courses (most of which are actually just a cleverly-disguised way to persuade an already successful business to start spending lots of money on marketing packages, graphic designers, a website, affiliate marketing, and so on).

Of course, most of us here on MennoNet are not in these kind of more conservative groups, and indeed most of us are in transitional groups, so it should not be a shock that many people are transitioning to more worldly ways of doing things. However, I don't see how it's a good argument for why (for example) we should encourage our daughters to start becoming ballerinas, hip-hop dancers, singers, etc. just because some of our uncles are trying to grow their business as fast as possible for the filthy pursuit of lucre.

[AnthonyMartin]

Spend some time around actually conservative Anabaptists as opposed to the least conservative people who still begrudgingly will make their wife wear a jeans skirt to church on Sunday.

I guess Eastern, Hope, Pilgrim, Southeastern, don’t qualify. We just don’t get it joshuabgood. I’m not sure, some of the most state of the art business and promo I know are Mid Atlantic and more conservative. I don’t think they make their wives wear jean skirts to church on Sunday….

There are many plain Anabaptist groups where trying to make your business as big as possible is not seen as virtuous, and where hiring slick marketers is also frowned on. Some Amish groups actually forbid their members from going to "business development" courses (most of which are actually just a cleverly-disguised way to persuade an already successful business to start spending lots of money on marketing packages, graphic designers, a website, affiliate marketing, and so on).

Of course, most of us here on MennoNet are not in these kind of more conservative groups, and indeed most of us are in transitional groups, so it should not be a shock that many people are transitioning to more worldly ways of doing things. However, I don't see how it's a good argument for why (for example) we should encourage our daughters to start becoming ballerinas, hip-hop dancers, singers, etc. just because some of our uncles are trying to grow their business as fast as possible for the filthy pursuit of lucre.

But what if it’s the most beautiful straw man ballerina you’ve ever seen? I’m done, best wishes JohnH

[ken_sylvania]

Well...can they pursue housing construction like everyone does, or shed building, or retail sales, or heavy equipment sales, or hardware stores, or restaurant development, or robotic farming, or mechanized excavating, or marketing, or financial institutions, or etc etc?

That is what feels hard for some folks. Some gifts are recognized and supported, and others looked on as elitist or showy. But no one gripes about a business striving for excellence or high performance. Or competing hard in the market place. Or staying ahead of the curve with fashion/art in construction, finance etc.

Folks don't label them elitist. They are often compensated at the highest levels. And i dont begrudge that. Let's also support the arts.

No. Plain people expect those fields to be pursued in a quite different and often more limited fashion.

Interesting, that hasn't really been my perspective. I usually see state of the art merchandising, internet platforms, video informational, brochures, marketing, etc. Bigger businesses are usually described as God's blessing of the business, regular business development courses through Lencioni, GLS, Disc, etc etc are considered worthy endeavors in pursuit of excellence. Books by Maxwell, Collins, etc are the guideposts.

I haven't done a study on this but I suspect that the type of people who own businesses like you are describing are also those who would "support the arts."
In fact - aren't those nifty videos, slick brochures, flashy marketing, etc essentially art?

There are also those who intentionally keep their marketing low-key, keep their business small, avoid flashy advertising and new vehicles. In my experience these folks who practice simplicity in their everyday lives are more likely to be the ones who are raising concerns about public performances of art and music.

There seems to be a lot of broad-brushing going on in this thread. Maybe the pro-art and anti-art people could both use finer brushes.

[JohnH]

I haven't done a study on this but I suspect that the type of people who own businesses like you are describing are also those who would "support the arts."
In fact - aren't those nifty videos, slick brochures, flashy marketing, etc essentially art?

This type of marketing is absolutely getting decimated with AI tools, too - almost anyone who has enough competence to operate a desktop computer can operate AI tools to generate these kind of brochures, a new logo, a fancy looking website, and even generate videos.

The ecosystem of "marketing and design firms" who have relied on this are going to be facing a tough future.

There are also those who intentionally keep their marketing low-key, keep their business small, avoid flashy advertising and new vehicles. In my experience these folks who practice simplicity in their everyday lives are more likely to be the ones who are raising concerns about public performances of art and music.

Interestingly enough, that is not something that can be done with AI tools. I know I'm dealing with someone I want to do business with when their truck just has a DOT number, their LLC name in vinyl on the side door, and a phone number. When I see a full wrap, I get concerned.

[joshuabgood]

Merchandising and marketing are important even in a small plain conservative bulkstore settings... How you arrange things, how you place the goods on the shelves, how you adjust with seasons, how you stay fresh...etc all have major impact on sales and profitability.

I know of many non jeanskirt, businesses that rightly pursue excellence in these things. AF itself runs business courses and provides consultants around these things specifically, for a fee to quite conservative and OO businesses. Also how to set goals, organize teams well, pass down big businesses through the family, marketing, etc etc.

It seems clear to me that we value excellence in these areas. AF themselves, quite conservative, run a great financial institution with around 800 mil in assets. And I think it is good.

My point to Ernie was that many other areas are pursued for excellence and seen as positive goods.