November 22, 1963

[DrWojo]

I don't know about your brothers-in-law motives Dr. Wojo, but I suspect this type of "disrespect" is what got Shadrach, Mechach and Abednigo thrown into the furnace.

So I’m curious, would you also consider Colin Kaepernick, Eric Reid and Kenny Stills, who all took a knee while the National Anthem was being played, to be modern Shadrach, Mechach and Abednigos?

[Dan Z]

I don't know about your brothers-in-law motives Dr. Wojo, but I suspect this type of "disrespect" is what got Shadrach, Mechach and Abednigo thrown into the furnace.

So I’m curious, would you also consider Colin Kaepernick, Eric Reid and Kenny Stills, who all took a knee while the National Anthem was being played, to be modern Shadrach, Mechach and Abednigos?

Not necessarily (I know Kapernick's name - not the others). I suppose the analogy depends on motive.

Shadrach, Mechach and Abednigo refused to bow to the King's image because of their allegiance to God and respect for his command against idolatry and the usurpation of His supremacy. They showed up as requested, stood respectfully, but did not participate in the actions of bowing and deference to the King's image that were commanded of them. They also willingly suffered the consequences of their actions.

The bark of a soldier commanding a nonresistant follower of Jesus to participate in symbolic acts allegiance to a flag and deference to a military monument is something I would have respectfully resisted as well (frankly, the hand over the heart is more symbolic to me than removing the hat out of respect for the dead. We grieve with those who grieve).

[DrWojo]

Is it also showing disrespect to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance but not say it or put your hand over your heart?

The whole point I’m trying to make is to get Plain folks to think about the message they leave without speaking any words. In particular, the message that fellow Christians find offensive. I probably didn’t fully realize this until I moved to Oklahoma. I was visiting with a deacon of a Pentecostal Holiness Church who shared with me his experience when a local Mennonite Church sent their children to the Holiness school and asked whether the Holiness would remove their flag from the stage for graduation because the Mennonites find it offensive? The Holiness Deacon proceeded to tell me of his relatives who died in service of the USA, “that these jokers can disrespect their service.” He further informed me that if he had a supply of small flags he would not have hesitated to break into the Mennonite Church and drill small holes on the end of every church bench and place flags there. (I don’t doubt for a minute that he would have) Also, I don’t want to be making up any stories, but I’m fairly certain that years ago there was a Pacifistic Church that started in Oklahoma and was burned by the locals in the community because it did not have a US flag in it and eventually the church did keep one in it to prevent having it be burned.

To answer your question, Is it also showing disrespect to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance but not say it or put your hand over your heart? I believe what’s most important is the body language, facial expressions, etc that convey whether we truly care or whether others would question if we’d sooner spit on the flag. Perhaps a way to check ourselves would be to make sure our conduct towards saluting the flag is just as respectful as though we are saying the Lord’s Prayer?

[RZehr]

You are equating, elevating the flag to praying to God? Worshiping God is no more reverent than that? Looks like flag worship to me. I think you have imbibed your community’s nationalism too much.

[Aurien]

Is it also showing disrespect to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance but not say it or put your hand over your heart?

The whole point I’m trying to make is to get Plain folks to think about the message they leave without speaking any words. In particular, the message that fellow Christians find offensive. I probably didn’t fully realize this until I moved to Oklahoma. I was visiting with a deacon of a Pentecostal Holiness Church who shared with me his experience when a local Mennonite Church sent their children to the Holiness school and asked whether the Holiness would remove their flag from the stage for graduation because the Mennonites find it offensive? The Holiness Deacon proceeded to tell me of his relatives who died in service of the USA, “that these jokers can disrespect their service.” He further informed me that if he had a supply of small flags he would not have hesitated to break into the Mennonite Church and drill small holes on the end of every church bench and place flags there. (I don’t doubt for a minute that he would have) Also, I don’t want to be making up any stories, but I’m fairly certain that years ago there was a Pacifistic Church that started in Oklahoma and was burned by the locals in the community because it did not have a US flag in it and eventually the church did keep one in it to prevent having it be burned.

I don't think breaking and entering and arson are appropriate responses for people towards those who don't wish to display the a country's flag. I don't know if the folks who reportedly burned a church were Christian but that Holiness Deacon definitely did NOT display any kind of Christian attitude towards the Mennonites.

To answer your question, Is it also showing disrespect to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance but not say it or put your hand over your heart? I believe what’s most important is the body language, facial expressions, etc that convey whether we truly care or whether others would question if we’d sooner spit on the flag. Perhaps a way to check ourselves would be to make sure our conduct towards saluting the flag is just as respectful as though we are saying the Lord’s Prayer?

Um... One is the inspired word of God and is speaking to the Creator of the universe. The Pledge of Allegiance was created by man to honor a country created by man. The Lord's Prayer definitely deserves more respect. I'll continue standing during the Pledge without saying it and without my hand on my heart. I'll try to not look like I'd sooner spit on the flag though my usual expression during the Pledge is neutral anyway.

[Aurien]

You are equating, elevating the flag to praying to God? Worshiping God is no more reverent than that? Looks like flag worship to me. I think you have imbibed your community’s nationalism too much.

This something that I actually completely agree with you on.

[AnthonyMartin]

I'm not convinced that the respect suggested by DrWojo and the total allegiance to Jesus Christ results in the polar opposites developing in the dialogue. Perhaps it deserves its own thread. But, surely there are compatible ways to respectfully express gratitude for the privileges we experienced based on sacrifices made by many.

[Biblical Anabaptist]

I'm not convinced that the respect suggested by DrWojo and the total allegiance to Jesus Christ results in the polar opposites developing in the dialogue. Perhaps it deserves its own thread. But, surely there are compatible ways to respectfully express gratitude for the privileges we experienced based on sacrifices made by many.

I think (correct me if I am wrong) the whole idea of us "enjoying freedoms" because of the sacrifices made by many is a myth perpetuated by those who are trying to incite young men (and women) to march off into war and kill their fellow men.

[RZehr]

The whole point I’m trying to make is to get Plain folks to think about the message they leave without speaking any words. In particular, the message that fellow Christians find offensive.

I think it doesn’t take hand on heart to show respect.

I probably didn’t fully realize this until I moved to Oklahoma. I was visiting with a deacon of a Pentecostal Holiness Church who shared with me his experience when a local Mennonite Church sent their children to the Holiness school and asked whether the Holiness would remove their flag from the stage for graduation because the Mennonites find it offensive? The Holiness Deacon proceeded to tell me of his relatives who died in service of the USA, “that these jokers can disrespect their service.” He further informed me that if he had a supply of small flags he would not have hesitated to break into the Mennonite Church and drill small holes on the end of every church bench and place flags there. (I don’t doubt for a minute that he would have) Also, I don’t want to be making up any stories, but I’m fairly certain that years ago there was a Pacifistic Church that started in Oklahoma and was burned by the locals in the community because it did not have a US flag in it and eventually the church did keep one in it to prevent having it be burned.

What was your response to him?
Did you exhort him to at least show respect for others beliefs, as you ask us to do? Was your response the same had a Mennonite told you they wanted to break into someone’s church and steal flags? Or is that different? Their ancestors died for the flag, ours have been killed by the flag.
What was your response to him?

It obviously was not a good plan to ask them to remove the flag. I’m surprised they did. When we rent large churches for big events, we leave their flags alone.

Interestingly enough, I also visited with a man this week who grew up Pentecostal, and he asked me about the pledge of allegiance and the flag. He told me that he grew up doing it all, very patriotic family in ranching country here, and him and his wife together have begun to question the appropriateness of the pledge. He says they think their allegiance should be to God. He has also stopped carrying his handgun. He said he would stand but not say the pledge.

Maybe war memorials and Arlington are places Mennonites should avoid. What business do we have going there if it is going to cause conflict?

[AnthonyMartin]

I'm not convinced that the respect suggested by DrWojo and the total allegiance to Jesus Christ results in the polar opposites developing in the dialogue. Perhaps it deserves its own thread. But, surely there are compatible ways to respectfully express gratitude for the privileges we experienced based on sacrifices made by many.

I think (correct me if I am wrong) the whole idea of us "enjoying freedoms" because of the sacrifices made by many is a myth perpetuated by those who are trying to incite young men (and women) to march off into war and kill their fellow men.

I believe that your statement is misleading and in some ways incorrect. To argue that sacrifice made by many is a myth and did nothing to provide the current freedoms seems totally false to me. To argue that such war and sacrifice is the only way to achieve these freedoms would also seem incorrect to me. Whether or not you can endorse the methods of war does not seem to diminish that fact that it was a means successfully used for the results we currently enjoy.