Bunny Trails

[Judas Maccabeus]

Breaking news:
"Pope Francis Allows Priests to Bless Same-Sex Relationships"

New Youk Times,,,,

Is it only me that smells the beginning of schism here............................

Only under specific conditions.

However, in the document that was published today, the Pope said that such blessings should not be part of regular Church rituals or related to civil unions or weddings.

It also added that its definition of marriage was a lifelong sacrifice between a man and a woman.
The Vatican said the change should be a sign that "God welcomes all", however the decision of whether to allow the blessings would be operated on a case-by-case basis.
Source

Keep in mind that priests bless pets on St. Francis' Feast Day. They do not bless pets as a part of a wedding sacrament. There are many blessings for inanimate objects too, e.g. cars, houses, etc.

My suspicion is this is the first step on the slippery slope. Whatever happened to those relationships being "inherently disordered."

Was this done as an indult? Will there be any supervision to insure that they are not turned into an ersatz wedding?

[Ken]

Breaking news:
"Pope Francis Allows Priests to Bless Same-Sex Relationships"

New [York] Youk Times,,,,
Is it only me that smells the beginning of schism here............................

i don’t, mainly because, witnessing the HUGE Catholic priest abuse scandals, 1990’s-forward, at the time, as an outsider, not even a visitor, at that time, i expected widespread damage, possibly collapse, of the RCC. It didn’t happen (as i imagined).

Damage was done, ripple effects continue.

At the same time, WIM and homosexuals in ministry ran like wildfire in most denoms. i recall this as all intertwned, if not, one of the greatest “coincidences” of all time. Damage was done, ripple effects continue. In and beyond Catholicism. Consider the current Methodist church split.

i consider Pope Frances as part of the ripple effect. A willing proponent. i’m sorry to say.
i enjoy Cardinals Sarah and Burke.

It’s kinda hard to remember now how scandalous things were, late 1990’s-ish.
The internet allowed victims of decades to “find each other” in ways never before possible.

A ton of historical hierarchical gaslighting was brought to an end. In the RCC and elsewhere.
Recall, this was part of Martin Luther’s complaint. Carnal sin.

Not just churches. Remember the Boy Scouts.
Sin does not stay confined.

Personally, I suspect liberalism/modernism at the root of that crisis. Their followers are like arsonists who go round lighting fires themselves and then enjoy standing around to mock the firemen trying to put it out. Once that’s out, it’s on to starting another fire somewhere else. Rinse and repeat.

I doubt it. Look at the history of the Catholic church in Ireland during the 20th Century. Not a whiff of modernism there yet there were endless abuse scandals across the entire church, schools, orphanages, parish churches, and the like. It wasn't just priests, also nuns. And it ran for most of the century.

[Falco Knotwise]

i don’t, mainly because, witnessing the HUGE Catholic priest abuse scandals, 1990’s-forward, at the time, as an outsider, not even a visitor, at that time, i expected widespread damage, possibly collapse, of the RCC. It didn’t happen (as i imagined).

Damage was done, ripple effects continue.

At the same time, WIM and homosexuals in ministry ran like wildfire in most denoms. i recall this as all intertwned, if not, one of the greatest “coincidences” of all time. Damage was done, ripple effects continue. In and beyond Catholicism. Consider the current Methodist church split.

i consider Pope Frances as part of the ripple effect. A willing proponent. i’m sorry to say.
i enjoy Cardinals Sarah and Burke.

It’s kinda hard to remember now how scandalous things were, late 1990’s-ish.
The internet allowed victims of decades to “find each other” in ways never before possible.

A ton of historical hierarchical gaslighting was brought to an end. In the RCC and elsewhere.
Recall, this was part of Martin Luther’s complaint. Carnal sin.

Not just churches. Remember the Boy Scouts.
Sin does not stay confined.

Personally, I suspect liberalism/modernism at the root of that crisis. Their followers are like arsonists who go round lighting fires themselves and then enjoy standing around to mock the firemen trying to put it out. Once that’s out, it’s on to starting another fire somewhere else. Rinse and repeat.

I doubt it. Look at the history of the Catholic church in Ireland during the 20th Century. Not a whiff of modernism there yet there were endless abuse scandals across the entire church, schools, orphanages, parish churches, and the like. It wasn't just priests, also nuns. And it ran for most of the century.

I don’t know the situation of Ireland well enough to make an intelligent call on that one, and I frankly I doubt you do either.

Did they bury all the dead bodies of the children, too, just outside the schoolhouses, just like you and all those neoMarxists up in Canada claimed?

[Ken]

Personally, I suspect liberalism/modernism at the root of that crisis. Their followers are like arsonists who go round lighting fires themselves and then enjoy standing around to mock the firemen trying to put it out. Once that’s out, it’s on to starting another fire somewhere else. Rinse and repeat.

I doubt it. Look at the history of the Catholic church in Ireland during the 20th Century. Not a whiff of modernism there yet there were endless abuse scandals across the entire church, schools, orphanages, parish churches, and the like. It wasn't just priests, also nuns. And it ran for most of the century.

Well, it sure wasn’t traditional Catholic teaching that caused that stuff as everything it teaches is against it. I don’t know the situation of Ireland well enough to make an intelligent call on that one, (and I doubt you do either), but in America, it looks that way to me. You can call them bigots for trying to keep homosexuals out of the orders if you want to (in keeping with traditional church teaching) but you can’t blame them for the prevalence of pederasty in the Church at the same time.

And the fact is 80 percent of the abuse cases were pederasty, a point the Church hierarchy mostly refused to admit to and whose only reply to that shown fact was to imply that those who pointed out that fact were motivated by bigotry, and therefore they would dignify them with a response.

Not in Ireland. It was equal opportunity abuse of both boys and girls and it was conducted by both priests and nuns. The government did a 9-year 5-volume report on abuses from the 1930s through the 1950s and found tens of thousands of victims: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... use-claims

This was not a period of liberalism in the Catholic Church in Ireland or Ireland in General.

Note, I'm not claiming that abuse is linked to conservatism. But rather that it is a equal-opportunity crime in the Catholic church. And to try to blame it on liberals bouncing around stirring up trouble like you tried to do above is egregiously wrong. In this case it was liberals who finally brought a end to it and conservatives (inside and outside the church) who tried to cover it up for decades.

[Falco Knotwise]

I doubt it. Look at the history of the Catholic church in Ireland during the 20th Century. Not a whiff of modernism there yet there were endless abuse scandals across the entire church, schools, orphanages, parish churches, and the like. It wasn't just priests, also nuns. And it ran for most of the century.

Well, it sure wasn’t traditional Catholic teaching that caused that stuff as everything it teaches is against it. I don’t know the situation of Ireland well enough to make an intelligent call on that one, (and I doubt you do either), but in America, it looks that way to me. You can call them bigots for trying to keep homosexuals out of the orders if you want to (in keeping with traditional church teaching) but you can’t blame them for the prevalence of pederasty in the Church at the same time.

And the fact is 80 percent of the abuse cases were pederasty, a point the Church hierarchy mostly refused to admit to and whose only reply to that shown fact was to imply that those who pointed out that fact were motivated by bigotry, and therefore they would dignify them with a response.

Not in Ireland. It was equal opportunity abuse of both boys and girls and it was conducted by both priests and nuns. The government did a 9-year 5-volume report on abuses from the 1930s through the 1950s and found tens of thousands of victims: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... use-claims

Like up in Canada? Didn’t you have a Guardian link for that one, too?

Note, I'm not claiming that abuse is linked to conservatism. But rather that it is a equal-opportunity crime in the Catholic church. And to try to blame it on liberals bouncing around stirring up trouble like you tried to do above is egregiously wrong.

Yes, the truth is liberals have always had a revolutionary edge and have always been united in their hatred of everything traditional with every other revolutionary movement. That’s the world we live in, today. No big deal. God is greater. Still, I’m waiting until this latest fire clears the fields and see what takes root in those fields next.

[temporal1]

My suspicion is this is the first step on the slippery slope. Whatever happened to those relationships being "inherently disordered."

Was this done as an indult? Will there be any supervision to insure that they are not turned into an ersatz wedding?

Not the first step!
This slippery slope has been in process for decades. Before the 1990’s. Never satisfied, not possible to satisfy.
We deceive ourselves 1John 1:8. That’s The Lie; Jesus, in His few perfect words, explains. Read it and believe:

John 4:14-15
https://biblehub.com/john/4-14.htm

14But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst.
Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”

15The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water so that I will not get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

The reason there is no peace, no rest, is worship of self as God. As a FALSE god. To do so is hopeless.
Pride does not satisfy. It can’t.

Contnuing the slide down the restless slippery slope. Eternal restlessness. What a depressing future.

Pope Frances has succeeded in stirring pots, nothing more. The Most Furious will be those to whom he’s offering the blessing.
They will not rest. They can’t. False gods do not satisfy. They can’t. Jesus spells it out.

Believers understand the concepts of blessings and gratitude. Pride has no humility, no gratitude.

i have no doubt many of them are cursng him now. “wait for it.”

Rhode Island / mild example:
https://turnto10.com/news/local/local-p ... er-18-2023

[MaxPC]

Breaking news:
"Pope Francis Allows Priests to Bless Same-Sex Relationships"

New Youk Times,,,,

Is it only me that smells the beginning of schism here............................

Only under specific conditions.

However, in the document that was published today, the Pope said that such blessings should not be part of regular Church rituals or related to civil unions or weddings.

It also added that its definition of marriage was a lifelong sacrifice between a man and a woman.
The Vatican said the change should be a sign that "God welcomes all", however the decision of whether to allow the blessings would be operated on a case-by-case basis.
Source

Keep in mind that priests bless pets on St. Francis' Feast Day. They do not bless pets as a part of a wedding sacrament. There are many blessings for inanimate objects too, e.g. cars, houses, etc.

My suspicion is this is the first step on the slippery slope. Whatever happened to those relationships being "inherently disordered."

Was this done as an indult? Will there be any supervision to insure that they are not turned into an ersatz wedding?

I think many feel as you do regarding the slippery slope possibility.
No, it was not weighted as an indult. So far the Pope has not technically signed it either. Keeping it in the book of optional general blessings for animals, cars and houses, etc. will not allow it to be used for a Sacrament. Sacraments are a part of the Deposit of the Faith and not allowed to be jimmied.

Of course there will be those priests and Ordinaries who will refuse to use this new blessing it all. Then there are those who for twenty or more years pushed the boundaries and conducted their own ceremonies in defiance of the Vatican. Supervision is delegated to the local Ordinary (Bishop). Nevertheless if the local Ordinary is problematic in his fidelity, there are procedures for pursuing his removal.

Thus it has always been since the beginning of the human race: the Faithful and the Rebels. St. Paul addressed this dichotomy on a number of occasions in the New Testament. This dichotomy will be with us until the return of Christ. Can we be worried? Yes. Should we be worried? I would say pray for those in authority that the Faith and the Bible will be upheld.

Here is an explanation at the USCCB Website:

WASHINGTON - In response to the Declaration “Fiducia supplicans” issued by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith today, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) offered the following statement from its spokesperson, Chieko Noguchi, executive director of public affairs.

“The Declaration issued today by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) articulated a distinction between liturgical (sacramental) blessings, and pastoral blessings, which may be given to persons who desire God’s loving grace in their lives. The Church’s teaching on marriage has not changed, and this declaration affirms that, while also making an effort to accompany people through the imparting of pastoral blessings because each of us needs God’s healing love and mercy in our lives.”The Declaration issued today by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) articulated a distinction between liturgical (sacramental) blessings, and pastoral blessings, which may be given to persons who desire God’s loving grace in their lives. The Church’s teaching on marriage has not changed, and this declaration affirms that, while also making an effort to accompany people through the imparting of pastoral blessings because each of us needs God’s healing love and mercy in our lives.”

[Josh]

I doubt it. Look at the history of the Catholic church in Ireland during the 20th Century. Not a whiff of modernism there yet there were endless abuse scandals across the entire church, schools, orphanages, parish churches, and the like. It wasn't just priests, also nuns. And it ran for most of the century.

There was one aspect of modernism there: psychologists advised it would be traumatic to children to relive the memories at an older age, but abuse that happened at a young age they would just forget about, so best to sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn’t happen. They also advised moving offenders to a new location based on a dumb theory that it was “environment” or “opportunity” that caused abusers to offend.

[MaxPC]

Only under specific conditions.


Keep in mind that priests bless pets on St. Francis' Feast Day. They do not bless pets as a part of a wedding sacrament. There are many blessings for inanimate objects too, e.g. cars, houses, etc.

My suspicion is this is the first step on the slippery slope. Whatever happened to those relationships being "inherently disordered."

Was this done as an indult? Will there be any supervision to insure that they are not turned into an ersatz wedding?

I think many feel as you do regarding the slippery slope possibility.
No, it was not weighted as an indult. So far the Pope has not technically signed it either. Keeping it in the book of optional general blessings for animals, cars and houses, etc. will not allow it to be used for a Sacrament. Sacraments are a part of the Deposit of the Faith and not allowed to be jimmied.

Of course there will be those priests and Ordinaries who will refuse to use this new blessing it all. Then there are those who for twenty or more years pushed the boundaries and conducted their own ceremonies in defiance of the Vatican. Supervision is delegated to the local Ordinary (Bishop). Nevertheless if the local Ordinary is problematic in his fidelity, there are procedures for pursuing his removal.

Thus it has always been since the beginning of the human race: the Faithful and the Rebels. St. Paul addressed this dichotomy on a number of occasions in the New Testament. This dichotomy will be with us until the return of Christ. Can we be worried? Yes. Should we be worried? I would say pray for those in authority that the Faith and the Bible will be upheld.

Here is an explanation at the USCCB Website:

WASHINGTON - In response to the Declaration “Fiducia supplicans” issued by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith today, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) offered the following statement from its spokesperson, Chieko Noguchi, executive director of public affairs.

“The Declaration issued today by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) articulated a distinction between liturgical (sacramental) blessings, and pastoral blessings, which may be given to persons who desire God’s loving grace in their lives. The Church’s teaching on marriage has not changed, and this declaration affirms that, while also making an effort to accompany people through the imparting of pastoral blessings because each of us needs God’s healing love and mercy in our lives.”The Declaration issued today by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) articulated a distinction between liturgical (sacramental) blessings, and pastoral blessings, which may be given to persons who desire God’s loving grace in their lives. The Church’s teaching on marriage has not changed, and this declaration affirms that, while also making an effort to accompany people through the imparting of pastoral blessings because each of us needs God’s healing love and mercy in our lives.”

ADDENDUM FOR JM:
The text was not issued in forma specifica, a particular formula in which a curial document is effectively co-signed by the pope, giving it full papal weight. It is not an indult.

Pastoral blessings are different from the liturgical blessings during a Sacrament such as marriage. Pastoral blessings can be changed and even eliminated from the Book of Blessings.

Is it the camel's nose? We shall keep praying and see how God deals with this. God has never been shy about correcting His Church on earth. As Pope Benedict XVI was fond of saying:
The Lord wins in the end.

[Judas Maccabeus]

My suspicion is this is the first step on the slippery slope. Whatever happened to those relationships being "inherently disordered."

Was this done as an indult? Will there be any supervision to insure that they are not turned into an ersatz wedding?

I think many feel as you do regarding the slippery slope possibility.
No, it was not weighted as an indult. So far the Pope has not technically signed it either. Keeping it in the book of optional general blessings for animals, cars and houses, etc. will not allow it to be used for a Sacrament. Sacraments are a part of the Deposit of the Faith and not allowed to be jimmied.

Of course there will be those priests and Ordinaries who will refuse to use this new blessing it all. Then there are those who for twenty or more years pushed the boundaries and conducted their own ceremonies in defiance of the Vatican. Supervision is delegated to the local Ordinary (Bishop). Nevertheless if the local Ordinary is problematic in his fidelity, there are procedures for pursuing his removal.

Thus it has always been since the beginning of the human race: the Faithful and the Rebels. St. Paul addressed this dichotomy on a number of occasions in the New Testament. This dichotomy will be with us until the return of Christ. Can we be worried? Yes. Should we be worried? I would say pray for those in authority that the Faith and the Bible will be upheld.

Here is an explanation at the USCCB Website:

WASHINGTON - In response to the Declaration “Fiducia supplicans” issued by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith today, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) offered the following statement from its spokesperson, Chieko Noguchi, executive director of public affairs.

“The Declaration issued today by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) articulated a distinction between liturgical (sacramental) blessings, and pastoral blessings, which may be given to persons who desire God’s loving grace in their lives. The Church’s teaching on marriage has not changed, and this declaration affirms that, while also making an effort to accompany people through the imparting of pastoral blessings because each of us needs God’s healing love and mercy in our lives.”The Declaration issued today by the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) articulated a distinction between liturgical (sacramental) blessings, and pastoral blessings, which may be given to persons who desire God’s loving grace in their lives. The Church’s teaching on marriage has not changed, and this declaration affirms that, while also making an effort to accompany people through the imparting of pastoral blessings because each of us needs God’s healing love and mercy in our lives.”

ADDENDUM FOR JM:
The text was not issued in forma specifica, a particular formula in which a curial document is effectively co-signed by the pope, giving it full papal weight. It is not an indult.

Pastoral blessings are different from the liturgical blessings during a Sacrament such as marriage. Pastoral blessings can be changed and even eliminated from the Book of Blessings.

Is it the camel's nose? We shall keep praying and see how God deals with this. God has never been shy about correcting His Church on earth. As Pope Benedict XVI was fond of saying:
The Lord wins in the end.

I would have thought it would have been an Indult due to the intrinsically sinful such relationships are. I pray this turns out well for you,