Dated Songs, Technology Songs, and Anabaptist Tradition

[MaxPC]

I have always classified (arguably ossified) hymns into two categories:
Academic (theologically correct)
Emotional (might be theologically correct or incorrect)

Most music has an emotional basis; we cannot separate humans from our emotions. Additionally the hymn singing has the added benefit of creating a sense of community among the believers. It creates a shared emotional attachment. The words reflect that shared experience and attachment.

Every now and again Catholic World will create a new hymnal. Those hymns that are more parochial/pedestrian and less accurate will get a purge. Some will be rewritten and some will disappear, perhaps revived by a youth minister somewhere to elicit the requisite emotional ambiance.

That said, my own favorite is O Come, O Come, Emmanuel (Veni, veni Emmanuel).
YMMV.

[Abbott]

Another hymn that comes to mind is the fervently-sung "Faith Of Our Fathers", widely accepted among conservative Anabaptists in spite of how it needed to be sanitized of the hymn writer's objectionable 3rd verse before making it into the hymnal. In his own words, verse 3:

"Faith of our fathers, Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to Thee;
And through the truth that comes from God,
England shall then indeed be free."

Even though he wrote the hymn with such sentiments in mind, once this verse it gone, the hymn is acceptable to sing by even the most conservative Anabaptists.

[RZehr]

Another hymn that comes to mind is the fervently-sung "Faith Of Our Fathers", widely accepted among conservative Anabaptists in spite of how it needed to be sanitized of the hymn writer's objectionable 3rd verse before making it into the hymnal. In his own words, verse 3:

"Faith of our fathers, Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to Thee;
And through the truth that comes from God,
England shall then indeed be free."

Even though he wrote the hymn with such sentiments in mind, once this verse it gone, the hymn is acceptable to sing by even the most conservative Anabaptists.

I’ve song that song lots, never heard that verse sung. Without checking, I think that verse has been removed from our song books.

[Ken]

Another hymn that comes to mind is the fervently-sung "Faith Of Our Fathers", widely accepted among conservative Anabaptists in spite of how it needed to be sanitized of the hymn writer's objectionable 3rd verse before making it into the hymnal. In his own words, verse 3:

"Faith of our fathers, Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to Thee;
And through the truth that comes from God,
England shall then indeed be free."

Even though he wrote the hymn with such sentiments in mind, once this verse it gone, the hymn is acceptable to sing by even the most conservative Anabaptists.

Any idea what the political context of that verse is? Is that part of the longstanding Catholic-Protestant conflicts in England? Or something entirely different?

[ohio jones]

Any idea what the political context of that verse is? Is that part of the longstanding Catholic-Protestant conflicts in England? Or something entirely different?

Raised in the Church of England, Frederick W. Faber came from a Huguenot and strict Calvinistic family background. He was educated at Balliol College, Oxford, and ordained in the Church of England in 1839. Influenced by the teaching of John Henry Newman, Faber followed Newman into the Roman Catholic Church in 1845.... Because he believed that Roman Catholics should sing hymns like those written by John Newton, Charles Wesley, and William Cowpe[r], Faber wrote 150 hymns himself.

So he got Catholics to sing Protestant hymns, and in return, Protestants and Anabaptists sing one of his hymns (slightly edited).

[mike]

Another hymn that comes to mind is the fervently-sung "Faith Of Our Fathers", widely accepted among conservative Anabaptists in spite of how it needed to be sanitized of the hymn writer's objectionable 3rd verse before making it into the hymnal. In his own words, verse 3:

"Faith of our fathers, Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to Thee;
And through the truth that comes from God,
England shall then indeed be free."

Even though he wrote the hymn with such sentiments in mind, once this verse it gone, the hymn is acceptable to sing by even the most conservative Anabaptists.

I’ve song that song lots, never heard that verse sung. Without checking, I think that verse has been removed from our song books.

Yeah, and check out the original version of Come Come Ye Saints. We sanitize the good songs of the cults and heretics so we can sing 'em, too.

[Ernie]

1. Singing to angels is not a lot different from praying to/through Mary.
2. I don't expect to have angels bear me to heaven.
3. I'm not aware that angels have wings.

I agree with the first point, am neutral on the second, and disagree with the third.

See Exodus 25:20, Exodus 37:9, 1 Kings 6:27, Isaiah 6:2, Ezekiel 10:5... This isn't even all of them.

Argument from silence as to winged angels?

I don't think of cherubs as being angels. Angels often appeared as men. If angels had wings, it seems that would not have been viewed as men by humans. I think of both cherubs and angels as beings, who are part of God's heavenly host.

Here is a link with some good fact checking.
https://www.simplybible.com/f47b-notes- ... raphim.htm

[Soloist]

I don't think of cherubs as being angels. Angels often appeared as men. If angels had wings, it seems that would not have been viewed as men by humans. I think of both cherubs and angels as beings, who are part of God's heavenly host.

Here is a link with some good fact checking.
https://www.simplybible.com/f47b-notes- ... raphim.htm

Fact checking on Scripture? seriously? The facts they mention is that its not specified one way or another and they mention several other beliefs on Angels that they say isn't factual. They don't even go into the sources of this information such as the Apocryphal writings or the early church teaching.

Secondly, Angel is a term meaning Messenger and the Angel of the church was likely referring to the church leader.

Perhaps you can read the apocryphal writings on angels and let me know your thoughts.

There are some that would believe Jesus manifested himself in human form in the Old Testament, and in those situations "Angel of the Lord" is used. We don't say Jesus is an Angel though.

[MaxPC]

The Bible tells us that angels have names:

Luke 1:26-38

The Birth of Jesus Foretold
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;
and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever;
and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

34 And Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no husband?” 35 And the angel said to her,

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born[d] will be called holy,
the Son of God.

36 And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

[Ernie]

Fact checking on Scripture? seriously?

No, I was referring to fact checking people's assumptions about angels.