Dated Songs, Technology Songs, and Anabaptist Tradition

[Ken]

I have no problem with Christmas carols at all. I love Christmas carols and most Christmas traditions that aren’t overtly commercial and corporate. I just think most of is more cultural than strictly rooted in Christianity. One only has to travel the world to see the immensely diverse ways in which Christmas is practiced in different cultures to conclude that most of it is based on cultural traditions rather than some strict interpretation of scripture.

But I would point out that many Conservative Christians over the centuries have been adamantly opposed to Christmas caroling and many other common Christmas traditions for that reason.

As for problematic carols? If the lyrics to Angel Band are problematic then study the lyrics to ‘It Came Upon a Midnight Clear” and tell me what is the difference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Came_U ... ight_Clear

so you don't have any supporting ancient text for your belief?

Like I said, it’s not my belief. I have no problem with Christmas carols. I think many of them are beautiful. I’m simply pointing out that if one finds certain hymns problematic because they mention technology or angels or what have you (the original post to this thread) then one is going to find the entire tradition of Christmas carols problematic as well, as have many doctrinaire ultra conservative Christian leaders over the centuries. I am not troubled by the blending of Christianity and other folk traditions, even those that might come from older pagan traditions. When I lived in Guatemala, for example, I discovered many different local Christmas traditions, some no doubt borrowed from older Mayan traditions. As is the case for much of Catholicism in Guatemala. I found it beautiful and interesting, not problematic.

[ohio jones]

... if one finds certain hymns problematic because they mention technology or angels or what have you (the original post to this thread) ...

Perhaps a misreading of the OP explains the subsequent lack of communication.

[Ernie]

This is a MennoLight thread...

To summarize the OP:
I find it amusing that the folks who take themselves the most seriously, and are constantly looking for ways to avoid being like the world, are the same ones who are loath to part with something ("worldly" or "errroneous") that they have become emotionally or culturally attached to. If the church to the right or to the left of them, becomes emotionally or culturally attached to something that these folks consider "worldly" or "doctrinally erroneous", they would use these as illustrations in their Sunday school lessons and sermons, as examples of things Christians should avoid.

That is the extent of my aim in the OP. No more. No less.

[mike]

This is a MennoLight thread...

To summarize the OP:
I find it amusing that the folks who take themselves the most seriously, and are constantly looking for ways to avoid being like the world, are the same ones who are loath to part with something ("worldly" or "errroneous") that they have become emotionally or culturally attached to. If the church to the right or to the left of them, becomes emotionally or culturally attached to something that these folks consider "worldly" or "doctrinally erroneous", they would use these as illustrations in their Sunday school lessons and sermons, as examples of things Christians should avoid.

That is the extent of my aim in the OP. No more. No less.

I completely get what you're saying.

[Ken]

... if one finds certain hymns problematic because they mention technology or angels or what have you (the original post to this thread) ...

Perhaps a misreading of the OP explains the subsequent lack of communication.

What was the point then? Ernie listed various examples of songs that could be found to be "doctrinally erroneous" (his words) by conservative groups including specifically the hymn Angles Band. I don't think he agreed with that assessment but he found it curious or amusing that some CA churches used those hymns and hymns that mentioned old technologies but not new ones. Although I'm frankly unaware of any hymns of any sort that mention any new technologies.

All I did was extend the conversation to Christmas where there are plenty of songs and traditions that could also be seen as "doctrinally erroneous" by some conservatives even though I don't agree with that assessment either. I'm not one who wants to purge Christianity of every folk tradition that doesn't necessarily have foundation in scripture. I think many are quite beautiful.

But, for example, here is the chorus to Angel Band

Oh come, angel band
Come and around me stand
Oh, bear me away on your snow-white wings
To my immortal home
Oh, bear me away on your snow-white wings
To my immortal home

And here are the first two verses from "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear"

It came upon the midnight clear,
That glorious song of old,
From angels bending near the earth,
To touch their harps of gold:
"Peace on the earth, goodwill to men,
From heaven's all-gracious King."
The world in solemn stillness lay,
To hear the angels sing.

Still through the cloven skies they come,
With peaceful wings unfurled,
And still their heavenly music floats
O'er all the weary world;
Above its sad and lowly plains,
They bend on hovering wing,
And ever o'er its babel sounds
The blessed angels sing.

Can someone explain how one is more doctrinally problematic than the other?

[Soloist]

This is a MennoLight thread...

To summarize the OP:
I find it amusing that the folks who take themselves the most seriously, and are constantly looking for ways to avoid being like the world, are the same ones who are loath to part with something ("worldly" or "errroneous") that they have become emotionally or culturally attached to. If the church to the right or to the left of them, becomes emotionally or culturally attached to something that these folks consider "worldly" or "doctrinally erroneous", they would use these as illustrations in their Sunday school lessons and sermons, as examples of things Christians should avoid.

That is the extent of my aim in the OP. No more. No less.

It boggles my mind sometimes that authors that clearly teach things contrary to Scripture get quoted and referenced. Outside of myself, I don't see anyone referencing Anabaptist writers.

[Sudsy]

There is something about "Onward Christian Soldiers" that makes me uncomfortable every time we sing it. Somehow I feel I should be at a Salvation Army church when I sing that.

Here is another we often sang in Pentecostalism years ago that spoke of spiritual warfare and sometimes we marched around the church singing it -

1 The fight is on, the trumpet sound is ringing out,
The cry "To arms!" is heard afar and near;
The Lord of hosts is marching on to victory,
The triumph of the Christ will soon appear.

2 The fight is on, arouse, ye soldiers brave and true!
Jehovah leads, and vict'ry will assure;
Go, buckle on the armor God has given you,
And in His strength unto the end endure

3 The Lord is leading on to certain victory;
The bow of promise spans the eastern sky;
His glorious name in ev'ry land shall honored be;
The morn will break, the dawn of peace is nigh.

Chorus -
The fight is on, O Christian soldier,
And face to face in stern array,
With armor gleaming, and colors streaming,
The right and wrong engage today!
The fight is on, but be not weary;
Be strong and in His might hold fast;
If God be for us, His banner o'er us,
We'll sing the victor's song at last!

Eph 6:12 - NLT -

For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

Another scripture text that I often heard preached on spiritual warfare is 2 Timothy 2:3,4 -

Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer.

I think this is the problem with much of Christianity today, we are 'entangled in civilian affairs' and the warring is often regarding 'flesh and blood'. And/or the 'entanglement' is viewed in some areas of non-conforming but not in others.

Anyway, I am not familiar with Anabaptist hymn books but in general, do they not have hymns related to spiritual warfare ? I would think they do.

[Ken]

There is something about "Onward Christian Soldiers" that makes me uncomfortable every time we sing it. Somehow I feel I should be at a Salvation Army church when I sing that.

Here is another we often sang in Pentecostalism years ago that spoke of spiritual warfare and sometimes we marched around the church singing it -

1 The fight is on, the trumpet sound is ringing out,
The cry "To arms!" is heard afar and near;
The Lord of hosts is marching on to victory,
The triumph of the Christ will soon appear.

2 The fight is on, arouse, ye soldiers brave and true!
Jehovah leads, and vict'ry will assure;
Go, buckle on the armor God has given you,
And in His strength unto the end endure

3 The Lord is leading on to certain victory;
The bow of promise spans the eastern sky;
His glorious name in ev'ry land shall honored be;
The morn will break, the dawn of peace is nigh.

Chorus -
The fight is on, O Christian soldier,
And face to face in stern array,
With armor gleaming, and colors streaming,
The right and wrong engage today!
The fight is on, but be not weary;
Be strong and in His might hold fast;
If God be for us, His banner o'er us,
We'll sing the victor's song at last!

Eph 6:12 - NLT -

For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

Another scripture text that I often heard preached on spiritual warfare is 2 Timothy 2:3,4 -

Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer.

I think this is the problem with much of Christianity today, we are 'entangled in civilian affairs' and the warring is often regarding 'flesh and blood'. And/or the 'entanglement' is viewed in some areas of non-conforming but not in others.

Anyway, I am not familiar with Anabaptist hymn books but in general, do they not have hymns related to spiritual warfare ? I would think they do.

I've heard this hymn sung in Southern Baptist churches. But never in any Mennonite Church I have ever attended. And I'm not aware that it is in any Mennonite Hymnal. Certainly not the one I grew up with. Are there Menno or CA churches that use this hymn?

This is the mainstream Mennonite Hymnal that I grew up with. I don't know offhand of any similar songs but you are free to look. The entire thing is indexed online: https://hymnary.org/hymnal/MH1969

[cmbl]

Every once in a while, I am amused by some of the songs Plain Anabaptists sing.

A few years ago I was in one of the most conservative Anabaptist congregations for a hymn sing.
We sang the song, "Oh, come Angel Band come and around me stand. Oh bear me away on your snowy wings to my immortal home."
I watched as the three solemn ministers, sitting on an elevated platform at the front of the church, sang these words over and over. Had this song not been included in 1927 Church Hymnal, and been sung in their church for nearly a hundred years, it could easily have been used in a sermon illustration as an example of the "light and frivolous" and "doctrinally erroneous" songs that Christians should not be singing.

Indeed, and as you're no doubt aware, there are many others.

There are other songs about ships and trains that are sung very solemnly by conservative Anabaptists.
Life is like a Mountain Railroad, If on a Quiet Sea toward Heaven we Calmly Sail, Jesus Savior, Pilot Me. etc.

Indeed. It seems that nautical metaphors became a cliche in the early 20th century "Gospel songs."

A few of the more thoughtful CA's will call attention to the doctrinal errors, but keep on singing them because there is no way that you are going to get the church to alter or eliminate the songs in their hymnbooks that have doctrinal errors. Those who call attention to these errors are likely to keep defending their constituency, even if there is nothing they can do about the songs.

A few of us will choose not to lead such songs or even not to sing them. Regarding the constituency: well, yes, since we have chosen the church constituencies that we're in, we do need to choose to get along in our church and encourage quality songs while not being unduly divisive.

Of course, the other side of this is that the CA singing tradition has exposed me to many many hymns that I otherwise would never have heard. (I came from the theologically conservative Evangelicals - no lady pastors, politics not preached from the pulpit but unspoken assumption that on Election Day we'll all be good Christians and vote Republican. "Praise/Worship team" with guitars, instruments, some Praise and Worship/CCM, and some hymns.)

Here's a list of several hymns (that I consider quality) that were new to me with the conservative Mennonites:
Eternal Father, When to Thee
Day by Day
Jesus, Thy Boundless Love To Me
O Power of Love
Hark! The Glad Sound
Thou Wilt Keep Him In Perfect Peace
Jesus, Thou Joy of Loving Hearts
Come Gracious Spirit, Heavenly Dove
Sun of My Soul
Abide with Me, Tis Eventide
Take Thou My Hand, O Father

[Ernie]

Here's a list of several hymns (that I consider quality) that were new to me with the conservative Mennonites:
Eternal Father, When to Thee
Day by Day
Jesus, Thy Boundless Love To Me
O Power of Love
Hark! The Glad Sound
Thou Wilt Keep Him In Perfect Peace
Jesus, Thou Joy of Loving Hearts
Come Gracious Spirit, Heavenly Dove
Sun of My Soul
Abide with Me, Tis Eventide
Take Thou My Hand, O Father

I like these songs as well. (But I admit I have not evaluated them at all.)

This is an admission, but I normally don't think about the words of a song I am singing unless something alerts me to the words for one reason or another. The title tells me what mood I should be in and then I get engrossed with the music.