Dated Songs, Technology Songs, and Anabaptist Tradition

[Grace]

I'm not much of a music person. That said, I do enjoy both traditional hymns as well as *some* of the newer contemporary stuff (7-11 songs, anyone?). Ken makes a good point- do we "read into" things too much?

(Anything with trains in it is okay in my book )

[Neto]

Since we are in the “Christmas season”, what about Christmas carols? Many Christmas carols are “doctrinally erroneous” and the tradition is of pagan rather than Christian origin. Do the plain churches that you are familiar with sing Christmas carols? Or do they avoid them like the Puritans and Scottish Calvinists did in centuries past?

A few of the more thoughtful CA's will call attention to the doctrinal errors, but keep on singing them because there is no way that you are going to get the church to alter or eliminate the songs in their hymnbooks that have doctrinal errors. Those who call attention to these errors are likely to keep defending their constituency, even if there is nothing they can do about the songs.

And since when are trains and ships problematic? How did the Amish and Mennonites get to North America if not by ship and train?

The point I am making is that conservative Anabaptists are ok with singing worship songs with analogies to dated technology, but not ok with singing songs about trucks or computers.

Old Orders may sing about ships and trains outside of church, but not during their formal worship.

Song writers generally write from their experience. So it would be natural for new generations to choose new motifs. But I agree that there is a tendency to scoff at songs that do that. There are also songs that I kind of like quite a bit, but the later verses get into to things with which I have no experience, things with which I do not "emote". An example: The somewhat old hymn "How Great Thou Art".
Second verse:
When through the woods
And forest glades I wander
I hear the birds
Sing sweetly in the trees,
When I look down
From lofty mountain grandeur
And hear the brook
And feel the gentle breeze,

I grew up on the great plains. I do not have these experiences of "forest glades", "gentle breezes", and "birds singing sweetly in the trees". Nor the brook. I have been to the mountains many times, and I've walked around in the jungle, but if you've ever been there, you will know that by and large, the birds there don't "sing sweetly". The Amazon is so flat that brooks don't gurgle, or make any noise at all. So if the song writer had been really "bi-partisan" he or she would have included verses that would create an identification for a wider scope of singers. (I know that this song was not well accepted when it first came out, and I've often wondered if it was too "earthy" for some listeners.)

I also sometimes cringe a bit with the preoccupation with the cross, where little attention is given to the empty tomb, or the ascending Christ. (I heard a Catholic priest's Easter message on the radio in Brazil once, and he used the illustration of stringing up a hammock, and said that the cross is one point, and the empty tomb is the other. Without both, he said, you're laying on the ground, or on the hard floor - your hammock is doing no good at all.)

[joshuabgood]

At one point I was hung up on doctrinal purity in music...not so much anymore. What is the underlying feeling/soul of the song and lyrics? How does it speak to the human condition?

Angel Band - to me brings a deep sense of awareness around the underlying reality of the brevity of life.
Drummer Boy - brings a deep awareness of the simplicity of giving as a "commoner"
Just a little talk - speaks to the truth of walking with the Lord and talking with him at all times about all things
Ship metaphors - register with people, especially from yesteryear, because of the instability and "scariness" of travel/life
War metaphors - register with people because we all have an inner sense that anything good must be fought for and is uphill all the way
Sad songs - register with people because life is melancholy...some say all of art (and especially musicians) are in the end melancholy because of the imperfections of the world
Jingle Bells/sleigh bells - gives us a few minutes of happiness and frolicking joy of snow and youth...a true joy of life (amidst its woes)
Tears in Heaven - death and the afterlife are in the end still a great mystery. We live in faith and look to the hereafter, knowing deep in our hearts, that we really only see through a glass darkly and trust our forerunner
Getty songs - despite the Calvinism and PSA, they speak to the beauty of the love of God and his sacrifice...

[HondurasKeiser]

Since we are in the “Christmas season”, what about Christmas carols? Many Christmas carols are “doctrinally erroneous” and the tradition is of pagan rather than Christian origin. Do the plain churches that you are familiar with sing Christmas carols? Or do they avoid them like the Puritans and Scottish Calvinists did in centuries past?

And since when are trains and ships problematic? How did the Amish and Mennonites get to North America if not by ship and train?

Ken, what are some Carols that are “doctrinally erroneous”? I'm curious yet loathe to discover it may be one of my favorites.

[steve-in-kville]

Drummer Boy - brings a deep awareness of the simplicity of giving as a "commoner"

At the risk of posting something "edgy":

[Ken]

Since we are in the “Christmas season”, what about Christmas carols? Many Christmas carols are “doctrinally erroneous” and the tradition is of pagan rather than Christian origin. Do the plain churches that you are familiar with sing Christmas carols? Or do they avoid them like the Puritans and Scottish Calvinists did in centuries past?

And since when are trains and ships problematic? How did the Amish and Mennonites get to North America if not by ship and train?

Ken, what are some Carols that are “doctrinally erroneous”? I'm curious yet loathe to discover it may be one of my favorites.

The act of Christmas Caroling itself is doctrinally erroneous. It is borrowed from pagan traditions. As is the notion that Christmas falls on or near the Winter Solstice. Christmas trees, bringing greenery into the home, gift giving, going door to door caroling, and many other Christmas traditions are all borrowed from more ancient pagan traditions like Saturnalia. Personally I think all these sorts of traditions are joyful and I am unbothered if they stray from some sort of strict 1st Century version of Christianity. Religion and culture has been blending for 2000 years. But if you are going to pick out specific hymns as problematic because they are not strictly biblical then Christmas itself is going to be enormously problematic.

For example, here is just one article on the subject among many: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... al/578464/

Like so many early Christian rituals, singing carols was a holdover from the winter feast celebration of Saturnalia, when people sang and danced in a ring. Now celebrants danced and sang around nativity scenes, though often with the same drunken abandon that had been a part of the pagan festivities. Because of those origins, some church leaders tried to prohibit carol singing while others sought to tame and solemnize it. In the year 129, for example, Bishop Telesphorus of Rome exhorted believers to gather inside churches to sing “Gloria in Excelsis Deo” on Christmas Day. Centuries later, both St. Francis of Assisi and later Martin Luther emphasized carol singing as central to Christian worship at Christmastime.

The rise of the Puritans brought a halt to carol singing of all types in England and North America. Puritans argued that the celebration of Christmas had no biblical support, condemned the holiday’s pagan roots, and blamed the Catholic Church for embellishing the day with excessive ritual and pageantry. Opposed to feast days for both reasons of theology and social control, the Puritans banned Christmas altogether in the 1640s, imposing strict penalties on anyone found celebrating it. (Talk about a War on Christmas … ) For Puritan authorities, singing carols was one of the gravest offenses because the practice could be traced to singing songs to the Roman goddess Ceres and because caroling also usually involved heavy drinking and louche conduct.

In Scotland, Calvinist authorities cracked down on carol singing especially hard. Those who invited holiday singers into their homes could be fined five pounds. In the city of Aberdeen, more than a dozen women were arrested one Christmas for the crime of “singing of filthy carols on Yule Day.” At least one Calvinist minister denounced the singing of carols as on par with the sin of fornicating.

Even once the Anglican Church restored Christmas in the late 17th century, religious authorities still allowed only a subdued observance of the holiday, and carols remained on the list of prohibitions. The Anglican minister Henry Bourne decried carols as a “disgrace” because they were “generally done, in the midst of Rioting and Chambering”—a euphemism for fornication—“and Wantonness.”

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the religious ban on carols enhanced their popularity, especially among the lower classes. Indeed, battles over carol singing in the 17th and 18th century in England and the American colonies revealed fractures not only between religious authorities and secular citizens, but also between upper-class city dwellers and poorer country folk. Bourne attacked Christmas carols as a “sin against Christ” and a custom of the “common People.” On both sides of the Atlantic, the rise of the Callithumpian parade— where boisterous revelers traveled in packs singing songs, banging pans, and making scatological sounds—was felt by many to be an assault on the genteel refinement of upper-class neighborhoods. That was exactly the point. Christmas offered the rare occasion to invert the social hierarchy and challenge societal constraints. The targeting of wealthy neighborhoods through raucous songs provided, for them, the holiday’s chief pleasure.

Upper-class folks complained bitterly about having their sleep disrupted for nights on end. One 19th century Englishman lamented that the carolers “make night hideous for three weeks before Christmas with wretched performances of indifferent melodies.” They also objected to singers demanding, often with violent threats, that their unwilling audiences give them food, drink, and money in order for them to move on. Though probably written many years later, the lyric from “We Wish You a Merry Christmas” announcing “We won’t go until we get some” referred to how revelers used Christmas carols to extort what they wanted from the wealthy.

[Soloist]

The act of Christmas Caroling itself is doctrinally erroneous. It is borrowed from pagan traditions. As is the notion that Christmas falls on or near the Winter Solstice. Christmas trees, bringing greenery into the home, gift giving, going door to door caroling, and many other Christmas traditions are all borrowed from more ancient pagan traditions like Saturnalia. Personally I think all these sorts of traditions are joyful and I am unbothered if they stray from some sort of strict 1st Century version of Christianity. Religion and culture has been blending for 2000 years. But if you are going to pick out specific hymns as problematic because they are not strictly biblical then Christmas itself is going to be enormously problematic.

Please share why you believe Caroling to be doctrinally erroneous. If you simply believe that its wrong because it borrows from pagan traditions please share your source.
The majority of Conservative Anabaptists don't decorate with trees, lights and so on. Some do give simple gifts, I personally believe gifts are tied to pagan practices as well as the tree, log mistletoe, etcetera...

the birth of Christ could easily have been in the winter, sheep were grazing in the fields as is done here in Oregon. What repeatedly is spoken about is that if our climate milds a little we could become a significant olive production location and every so often someone plants them again out here betting that climate change has impacted conditions enough to make it viable. I say this to point out the closeness of our climate to Israel.
Most of the modern Christmas practices were condemned by the early church but I'd like to see your sources on caroling.

Edit: I see you posted an article but I'd like to see something actually supporting the notion that singing songs praising God happen to be something the pagans did and the Christians adopted.

[Ken]

The act of Christmas Caroling itself is doctrinally erroneous. It is borrowed from pagan traditions. As is the notion that Christmas falls on or near the Winter Solstice. Christmas trees, bringing greenery into the home, gift giving, going door to door caroling, and many other Christmas traditions are all borrowed from more ancient pagan traditions like Saturnalia. Personally I think all these sorts of traditions are joyful and I am unbothered if they stray from some sort of strict 1st Century version of Christianity. Religion and culture has been blending for 2000 years. But if you are going to pick out specific hymns as problematic because they are not strictly biblical then Christmas itself is going to be enormously problematic.

Please share why you believe Caroling to be doctrinally erroneous. If you simply believe that its wrong because it borrows from pagan traditions please share your source.
The majority of Conservative Anabaptists don't decorate with trees, lights and so on. Some do give simple gifts, I personally believe gifts are tied to pagan practices as well as the tree, log mistletoe, etcetera...

the birth of Christ could easily have been in the winter, sheep were grazing in the fields as is done here in Oregon. What repeatedly is spoken about is that if our climate milds a little we could become a significant olive production location and every so often someone plants them again out here betting that climate change has impacted conditions enough to make it viable. I say this to point out the closeness of our climate to Israel.
Most of the modern Christmas practices were condemned by the early church but I'd like to see your sources on caroling.

Edit: I see you posted an article but I'd like to see something actually supporting the notion that singing songs praising God happen to be something the pagans did and the Christians adopted.

I have no problem with Christmas carols at all. I love Christmas carols and most Christmas traditions that aren’t overtly commercial and corporate. I just think most of is more cultural than strictly rooted in Christianity. One only has to travel the world to see the immensely diverse ways in which Christmas is practiced in different cultures to conclude that most of it is based on cultural traditions rather than some strict interpretation of scripture.

But I would point out that many Conservative Christians over the centuries have been adamantly opposed to Christmas caroling and many other common Christmas traditions for that reason.

As for problematic carols? If the lyrics to Angel Band are problematic then study the lyrics to ‘It Came Upon a Midnight Clear” and tell me what is the difference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Came_U ... ight_Clear

[HondurasKeiser]

The act of Christmas Caroling itself is doctrinally erroneous. It is borrowed from pagan traditions. As is the notion that Christmas falls on or near the Winter Solstice. Christmas trees, bringing greenery into the home, gift giving, going door to door caroling, and many other Christmas traditions are all borrowed from more ancient pagan traditions like Saturnalia. Personally I think all these sorts of traditions are joyful and I am unbothered if they stray from some sort of strict 1st Century version of Christianity. Religion and culture has been blending for 2000 years. But if you are going to pick out specific hymns as problematic because they are not strictly biblical then Christmas itself is going to be enormously problematic.

Please share why you believe Caroling to be doctrinally erroneous. If you simply believe that its wrong because it borrows from pagan traditions please share your source.
The majority of Conservative Anabaptists don't decorate with trees, lights and so on. Some do give simple gifts, I personally believe gifts are tied to pagan practices as well as the tree, log mistletoe, etcetera...

the birth of Christ could easily have been in the winter, sheep were grazing in the fields as is done here in Oregon. What repeatedly is spoken about is that if our climate milds a little we could become a significant olive production location and every so often someone plants them again out here betting that climate change has impacted conditions enough to make it viable. I say this to point out the closeness of our climate to Israel.
Most of the modern Christmas practices were condemned by the early church but I'd like to see your sources on caroling.

Edit: I see you posted an article but I'd like to see something actually supporting the notion that singing songs praising God happen to be something the pagans did and the Christians adopted.

I have no problem with Christmas carols at all. I love Christmas carols and most Christmas traditions that aren’t overtly commercial and corporate. I just think most of is more cultural than strictly rooted in Christianity. One only has to travel the world to see the immensely diverse ways in which Christmas is practiced in different cultures to conclude that most of it is based on cultural traditions rather than some strict interpretation of scripture.

But I would point out that many Conservative Christians over the centuries have been adamantly opposed to Christmas caroling and many other common Christmas traditions for that reason.

Agreed, it's a strange deracinating impulse that seeks to expunge the various cultural forms that Christianity takes in the name of ultra-Biblicism. I just watched a Columbian pastor preach a message about whether there is biblical support for celebrating Christmas at all (she concludes there is). What a strange thing to examine and even stranger that some conclude the Bible proscribes celebrating the Birth of Jesus. Our own Anabaptism is deeply embedded in cultural forms...and I like that. It's not the only value or highest value to consider but it's nevertheless a good thing. Christmas celebrations here in Honduras are very different from traditional celebrations in Central Pa; I prefer those that I was raised with - they feel more natural and warm but the Christmases that I have spent here have been wonderful and I enjoy the Honduran traditions for what they are: cultural (immanent) expressions of universal (transcendent) truths.

[Soloist]

I have no problem with Christmas carols at all. I love Christmas carols and most Christmas traditions that aren’t overtly commercial and corporate. I just think most of is more cultural than strictly rooted in Christianity. One only has to travel the world to see the immensely diverse ways in which Christmas is practiced in different cultures to conclude that most of it is based on cultural traditions rather than some strict interpretation of scripture.

But I would point out that many Conservative Christians over the centuries have been adamantly opposed to Christmas caroling and many other common Christmas traditions for that reason.

As for problematic carols? If the lyrics to Angel Band are problematic then study the lyrics to ‘It Came Upon a Midnight Clear” and tell me what is the difference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Came_U ... ight_Clear

so you don't have any supporting ancient text for your belief?