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Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 6:19 pm
by RZehr
This reads like all these things are good. But they sound terrible. And terrible for the environment.
…Could electric vehicles bring back those glory days of brisk sales and rapid obsolescence? In some ways, EVs resemble cellphones: Technology on them keeps improving rapidly and they are powered by batteries that degrade over time and depreciate quickly.

It is still early days. EVs make up 6.8% of U.S. auto sales but just over 1% of light-duty vehicles today. As they become a bigger part of the fleet, they could once again rev up dealers’ business—through not only faster replacement cycles but also more frequent repairs. While EVs have fewer mechanical parts, a recent study from J.D. Power showed that owners of battery EVs and plug-in hybrids took their new vehicles to the dealership for repairs at a rate three times higher than gas-powered vehicle owners did.

One reason to think EVs could accelerate replacement cycles: EV technology is improving a lot more quickly than technology for gasoline-fueled cars, which have been getting optimized for at least a century.

“The incremental improvement you see every year on [gas cars] is relatively small. When you look at incremental improvement on EV technology, that’s actually quite phenomenal, especially the battery but also the energy management in the vehicle,” said Philipp Kampshoff, a senior partner at McKinsey who leads its Center for Future Mobility in the Americas.

Consider battery life: The median range on electric vehicles was 270 miles for 2023 model year cars, up 27% from five years earlier, according to the U.S. Department of Energy. The improvement is even more remarkable on high-end EVs: Back in 2018, the longest-lasting battery could hold 335 miles of charge. Last year, the highest battery range hit 516 miles. Like iPhone and iPad makers, EV manufacturers are able to do a lot of updates over the air, but these have limits when the physical components can’t keep up with the newest updates.

Expensive repairs are another reason EVs might get cycled out faster. They require more mechanical labor hours. EVs also have been depreciating at a faster rate than gas cars, which gives owners even more reason to opt for replacement rather than repair.

An EV bought brand new at the beginning of 2022 went for about half the manufacturer’s suggested retail price after about two years and one month of ownership, according to data from KBB and Manheim. Internal combustion engine cars and hybrids retained about 66% and 73% of their MSRP, respectively, after that period.

The recent depreciation for EVs was exaggerated by a series of price cuts on EVs that started last year with Tesla. High maintenance costs also can contribute to steep depreciation: Luxury cars, for example, lose value quickly precisely because they are so expensive to maintain and repair, notes Karl Brauer, analyst at iSeeCars.

The same math applies to EVs that get into collisions: They are more likely to be declared total losses and sent to the scrapyard than fixed. In the first quarter, total loss frequency for EVs up to three years of age exceeded that of gas cars, according to data from Mitchell, a provider of software and data to insurers and the collision-repair industry. Up until 2023, total loss frequency had been lower for EVs because of how expensive they were relative to gas cars.

Ryan Mandell, director of claims performance at Mitchell, said he expects to see higher total loss frequency for EVs going forward, partly because cheaper EV models—such as those made by Kia—are becoming more popular. When the baseline used EV price is lower to begin with, it becomes more likely that the cost of reimbursing a driver for a similar car is lower than the cost of repairing it.

Battery degradation is another issue. Federal law requires automakers to give warranty on EV batteries for at least eight years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. About 13% of EVs outside that warranty window (2015 model or older) reported battery replacements, according to Recurrent, a provider of a battery-monitoring tool for EVs. In many cases, a replacement might cost more than buying a used EV. Recurrent notes, though, that most EVs have been on the road well under six years, making it difficult to form judgments. Predictive modeling from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory suggests that EV batteries should last 12 to 15 years under moderate climates.

There is already some indication that EVs are getting cycled out more frequently than gas cars. The average age of all cars on the road has been growing, and hit a record high of 12.6 years in 2024, but the average EV age has declined from 3.9 years in 2021 to 3.5 years this year, per S&P Global Mobility. Part of that is because new EV registrations have grown, but it is also because more EVs are off the road. About 6.6% of EVs registered in the U.S. left the fleet between 2013 and 2022, according to S&P Global Mobility data. That compares with a roughly 5.2% scrappage rate for gas vehicles. Scrappage includes cars that were sent to the junkyard, exported or simply parked without being used.

Given how much younger the EV population is, the scrappage rate is “higher than what we’d expect,” said Todd Campau, associate director of aftermarket solutions at S&P Global Mobility.

EVs have hit a speed bump lately: U.S. sales have slowed considerably to a growth rate of 2.6% in the first quarter year over year, according to Cox Automotive. A McKinsey survey published in June showed that 46% of EV owners in the U.S. said they are likely to switch back to a conventional car, primarily blaming the lack of charging infrastructure and the high total costs of ownership.

That surely frustrates dealers at the moment, but EVs could work out very nicely for them in the long run.


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/deal ... 00632.html

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 6:20 pm
by Soloist
This really looks like a bot wrote it :mrgreen: and that just about describes my opinion on electric cars.

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:08 pm
by Ken
Shrug.

It does look like a bot wrote it.

Here are some counter-facts.

1. Sales of ICE vehicles actually peaked in 2017 and have been declining since while sales of EVs continue to grow. Those two lines will eventually cross, the only question is when. Probably sometime in the early 2030s. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/report-gas ... d-in-2017/

2. All of the costs of the inputs into EV battery technology are falling rapidly. For example, lithium prices have been falling rapidly in the past 2 years bringing down the price of batteries. Prices of Nickel, Cobalt, and Magnesium falling as major new mineral deposits keep getting discovered.

3. EVs are actually reducing electricity prices for consumers. I know this is counter-intuitive. But most EVs charge at night when electrical loads are low which has padded profits for electrical companies and prevented price increases or brought electrical prices down. There was a recent study on this: https://www.synapse-energy.com/sites/de ... 21-032.pdf

4. People the same exact pro-horse and anti-car stories back in 1910 which was the peak year for horse usage in the United States.
How did that work out for the horse industry. I guess they still have the Amish and a few old-timey loggers, but that is about it.
https://automedia.revsinstitute.org/bee ... cal-savior

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:11 pm
by RZehr
Going from horse to automobile was not mandated. Incentivized is not mandated.

So I’m not sure how much we can assume it will all follow that transition. Because this time we have mandates. What would this transition look like with only market forces or incentives? And what will happen without mandates? Or are we just going to keep forcing these on the marketplace?

I know I don’t want one based on current technology.

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:15 pm
by ken_sylvania
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:08 pm 4. People the same exact pro-horse and anti-car stories back in 1910 which was the peak year for horse usage in the United States.
How did that work out for the horse industry. I guess they still have the Amish and a few old-timey loggers, but that is about it.
https://automedia.revsinstitute.org/bee ... cal-savior
It didn't work out well for the environment at any rate....

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:20 pm
by Ken
RZehr wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:11 pm Going from horse to automobile was not mandated. Incentivized is not mandated.

So I’m not sure how much we can assume it will all follow that transition. Because this time we have mandates. What would this transition look like with only market forces or incentives?
EVs aren't mandated either. What some people are calling a mandate is simply a pollution or emissions standard that can be met with any low emissions technology, not just EVs.

And when America transitioned from horses to cars there were, in fact, bans on horses. Not complete bans on horses per se (just like no one is banning existing gas cars). But many cities did ban horses from many new roads and highways that were under construction. And zoning laws began to make it all but impossible to keep horses in urban areas.

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:26 pm
by Ken
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:15 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:08 pm 4. People the same exact pro-horse and anti-car stories back in 1910 which was the peak year for horse usage in the United States.
How did that work out for the horse industry. I guess they still have the Amish and a few old-timey loggers, but that is about it.
https://automedia.revsinstitute.org/bee ... cal-savior
It didn't work out well for the environment at any rate....
The two biggest modes of transportation in 1910 were horse drawn transport at the local level and coal powered steam trains for distance travel. Both horses and coal fired locomotives generated immense amounts of pollution in American cities. The Gilded Age wasn't necessarily the golden age when it came to the environment.

One of the main reasons for why the Pennsylvania Railroad was electrified about that time was to reduce coal pollution from so many steam engines in the big cities.

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:28 pm
by RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:20 pm EVs aren't mandated either. What some people are calling a mandate is simply a pollution or emissions standard that can be met with any low emissions technology, not just EVs.
You sure about that?
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:20 pm And zoning laws…
:)

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:32 pm
by Ken
RZehr wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:28 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:20 pm EVs aren't mandated either. What some people are calling a mandate is simply a pollution or emissions standard that can be met with any low emissions technology, not just EVs.
You sure about that?
Well.... https://thehill.com/policy/energy-envir ... t-to-know/
What you should know about the new electric vehicle rule

The new rule will make it more difficult for gas-powered cars to keep up with the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) standards, which will ratchet up over time, and they’ll need “more advanced technology that will drive up prices,” Abuelsamid said.

At the same time, he noted, the increased production and availability of EVs will bring their average cost down.

Other analysts disagreed. Amaiya Khardenavis, an EV charging infrastructure analyst with Wood Mackenzie, said he doesn’t expect prices to rise for gas-powered cars because the technology is already there.

“We’re already at mass market with … [internal combustion engine] vehicles. So whatever we will see in the future is that prices for EVs will come below gas cars, but we will not expect prices of gas cars to go above … where they are today,” Khardenavis said.

The rule does not explicitly mandate a shift toward electric vehicles or any other specific vehicle type. Instead, it sets pollution standards for an automaker’s vehicle fleet that would be difficult to achieve without increasing the share of electric or other low-carbon vehicles.

Chris Harto, a senior policy analyst for transportation and energy at Consumer Reports, noted that since the rule is not a mandate, automakers will have at least some wiggle room to find the mix of technologies that best matches up with consumer demand.

“There is flexibility — if battery electric vehicles sales lag for some reason — to deploy more hybrids or plug-in hybrids or alternative technologies,” Harto said.
RZehr wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:28 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:20 pm And zoning laws…
:)
You laugh. But take Seattle. The current single family zoning restrictions covering most of the city that were written in 1923 prohibit horses on any lot smaller than 20,000 square feet. The average size residential lot in Seattle is 5,000 square feet. You would need to buy a block of four houses side by side and tear down 3 of them in order to keep a horse according to the Seattle zoning code. On the other hand, every house built in 1923 came with a garage or at least a driveway or alleyway for car access. That is about as close to a legal mandate to use a car instead of a horse as you can get.

Re: Article about electric vehicles

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2024 11:40 pm
by Josh
9 posts to turn a topic of electric cars into yet another post talking about Seattle’s zoning.