Your best friend's mom ...

[JohnH]

So I'm guessing the answer you chose not to give is that: No, your Ivy League educated doctor friend doesn't actually regret going to college. And doesn't actually wish that he/she entered the blue collar workforce at age 18 and started to have babies.

It is a very sensitive and painful thing to go through, experiencing infertility esp. when the reason given by doctors is your age. I do not try to ask painful questions to score political points.

All I can say is that there are a lot of general regrets, and now acceptance of the situation.

Have you known someone experiencing a lot of anguish about infertility particularly due to age and delaying having children?

[Ken]

So I'm guessing the answer you chose not to give is that: No, your Ivy League educated doctor friend doesn't actually regret going to college. And doesn't actually wish that he/she entered the blue collar workforce at age 18 and started to have babies.

It is a very sensitive and painful thing to go through, experiencing infertility esp. when the reason given by doctors is your age. I do not try to ask painful questions to score political points.

All I can say is that there are a lot of general regrets, and now acceptance of the situation.

Have you known someone experiencing a lot of anguish about infertility particularly due to age and delaying having children?

Yes I have known people going through fertility treatments. All of them college educated because that is really only something college-educated professionals can afford. And none of them to my knowledge regret attending college had they the chance to do it all over again.

You do realize that infertility has nothing to do with one's level of education? And you do realize that attending college doesn't preclude one having children? We had two of our daughters when my wife was still doing her medical training and also when I was going back to college in order to change careers.

[JohnH]

Have you known someone experiencing a lot of anguish about infertility particularly due to age and delaying having children?

Yes I have known people going through fertility treatments.

Please re-read my question.

All of them college educated because that is really only something college-educated professionals can afford. And none of them to my knowledge regret attending college had they the chance to do it all over again.

I know plenty of people who've gotten fertility treatments who aren't college-educated. You seem to think that only college-educated professionals can "afford things". This is not true.

You do realize that infertility has nothing to do with one's level of education?

Do you realize the getting married or divorced has nothing to do with one's level of education?

But if we go ahead and use your style of analysis, then yes, college education makes you much less likely to have children; since we've been discussing the Ivy League, I'll quote from Penn's distinguished Wharton school:

https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/i ... -education

Women who complete 4 years of college are less likely to have a child, while completion rates of 4 years of college rose 10 percent for women over the past decade.

And you do realize that attending college doesn't preclude one having children? We had two of our daughters when my wife was still doing her medical training and also when I was going back to college in order to change careers.

Attending college and pursuing a professional career generally means having children later in life. Speaking of which, do either of your daughters have children yet?

[Ken]

You do realize that infertility has nothing to do with one's level of education?

Do you realize the getting married or divorced has nothing to do with one's level of education?

But if we go ahead and use your style of analysis, then yes, college education makes you much less likely to have children; since we've been discussing the Ivy League, I'll quote from Penn's distinguished Wharton school:

Actually marriage and divorce rates are, in fact, affected by education. And it isn't simple correlation, there is well-studied causality and researched explanations as to why this is the case.

And your childbirth statistic from that Wharton school blog post is deceptive because it doesn't control for marriage. Non-college educated women are much more likely to have children out of wedlock than college-educated women. So their higher fertility rate is due to all the non-college educated young single mothers. About 40% of childbirths in this country are to unmarried women. The vast majority of whom are not college educated.

If you only measure births into stable 2-parent families then college educated women are having more children than non-college educated women. I linked to a study upstream that reached that conclusion.

What is the objective here? To create families or single mothers? I seem to recall not long ago where you were here preaching to us about how single mothers should actually be punished for their sinfulness. Well, all that sin is the reason why that blog post data shows what it shows.

[JohnH]

Actually marriage and divorce rates are, in fact, affected by education. And it isn't simple correlation, there is well-studied causality and researched explanations as to why this is the case.

Actually fertility is, in fact, affected by education. And it isn't a simple correlation, there is well-studied causality and researched explanations as to why this is the case.

And your childbirth statistic from that Wharton school blog post is deceptive because it doesn't control for marriage. Non-college educated women are much more likely to have children out of wedlock than college-educated women. So their higher fertility rate is due to all the non-college educated young single mothers. About 40% of childbirths in this country are to unmarried women. The vast majority of whom are not college educated.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

If you only measure births into stable 2-parent families then college educated women are having more children than non-college educated women. I linked to a study upstream that reached that conclusion.

Which is also irrelevant.

What is the objective here? To create families or single mothers? I seem to recall not long ago where you were here preaching to us about how single mothers should actually be punished for their sinfulness. Well, they are the reason why that blog post data shows what it shows.

There isn't an "objective" here. You started this when you claimed that you need to be college educated to get married and have a stable family. Others of us pointed out that that isn't valid, and went through your methodological errors. And here we are.

If you want to talk about how to create stable families, I would say that the Amish and other plain people should be your area of study. Since you complain about "insular communities", perhaps your area of focus could be ones that have a lot more outsiders, like the horse and buggy Brethren. Only then will you find the answers you seek.

Trying to herd everyone into college simply creates below-replacement-rate fertility levels, to the point the only people having kids are people who are less "intelligent" (eugenicists might even call them "undesirable"), don't go to college, and probably aren't even married. That's not their fault, though. It's the fault of everyone else who thinks having 1.2 children per family is somehow a good goal, or in the case of Korea, 0.6.

I think good, strong, healthy stable families are possible, and I think it's possible for people to lead good, decent lives without needing to get a college education first and go into a "professional career". I am deeply disturbed by how little respect some people have for people who aren't college educated and don't have a "professional career".

[Ken]

Actually marriage and divorce rates are, in fact, affected by education. And it isn't simple correlation, there is well-studied causality and researched explanations as to why this is the case.

Actually fertility is, in fact, affected by education. And it isn't a simple correlation, there is well-studied causality and researched explanations as to why this is the case.

And your childbirth statistic from that Wharton school blog post is deceptive because it doesn't control for marriage. Non-college educated women are much more likely to have children out of wedlock than college-educated women. So their higher fertility rate is due to all the non-college educated young single mothers. About 40% of childbirths in this country are to unmarried women. The vast majority of whom are not college educated.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

If you only measure births into stable 2-parent families then college educated women are having more children than non-college educated women. I linked to a study upstream that reached that conclusion.

Which is also irrelevant.

What is the objective here? To create families or single mothers? I seem to recall not long ago where you were here preaching to us about how single mothers should actually be punished for their sinfulness. Well, they are the reason why that blog post data shows what it shows.

There isn't an "objective" here. You started this when you claimed that you need to be college educated to get married and have a stable family. Others of us pointed out that that isn't valid, and went through your methodological errors. And here we are.

If you want to talk about how to create stable families, I would say that the Amish and other plain people should be your area of study. Since you complain about "insular communities", perhaps your area of focus could be ones that have a lot more outsiders, like the horse and buggy Brethren. Only then will you find the answers you seek.

Trying to herd everyone into college simply creates below-replacement-rate fertility levels, to the point the only people having kids are people who are less "intelligent" (eugenicists might even call them "undesirable"), don't go to college, and probably aren't even married. That's not their fault, though. It's the fault of everyone else who thinks having 1.2 children per family is somehow a good goal, or in the case of Korea, 0.6.

I think good, strong, healthy stable families are possible, and I think it's possible for people to lead good, decent lives without needing to get a college education first and go into a "professional career". I am deeply disturbed by how little respect some people have for people who aren't college educated and don't have a "professional career".

I have made three main claims here in this threat:

• 1. That college-educated men and women are more likely to get married. This is born out in the data and the causality is well understood.
  
  2. That college-educated men and woman are less likely to get divorced. This is also born out in the data and the causality is also well understood, and finally
  
  3. That college educated parents are more likely to have children in 2-parent families and less likely to have children in single-parent families. This is also born out in the data and the reasons are also well understood.

Yes people can have successful and productive lives regardless of their educational background. And plenty of people do. No one has said anything to the contrary. But if we look at the country as a whole, there is both a positive correlation and positive causality between college education and good outcomes when it comes to marriage, divorce, and forming 2-parent families. And no amount of hand-waving on your part will change those facts.

[JohnH]

The actual facts haven’t changed:

1. College-educated people have fewer children than non-college-educated do.

2. The population with the highest marriage and lowest divorce rate doesn’t go to college at all.

[Ken]

The actual facts haven’t changed:

1. College-educated people have fewer children than non-college-educated do.

As we discussed upstream. This is only true if you are counting the 40% of children born to single mothers. Who are mostly non-college educated. If you are counting children born to stable 2-parent married families then it is not true.

[Robert]

The actual facts haven’t changed:

1. College-educated people have fewer children than non-college-educated do.

As we discussed upstream. This is only true if you are counting the 40% of children born to single mothers. Who are mostly non-college educated. If you are counting children born to stable 2-parent married families then it is not true.

We have to be careful not to assume a college educated person is smarter or wiser then one who is not. Education does not equal intelligence or wisdom.

When I have a broken car, leaking pipe, or electrical issue, I do not look for a college educated person. I need those things more often then I need to learn about French Poetry or Gender Studies. When I need a doctor, I do look for one. It has its place, but not everyone who paid to pay in college is smarter than those who work for a living with their hands.

[ohio jones]

3. That college educated parents are more likely to have children in 2-parent families and less likely to have children in single-parent families. This is also born out in the data and the reasons are also well understood.[/list]

I would have thought the children of college educated parents are more likely to be born in the hospital, not out in the data.

The usual expression is "borne out"