Poll: Iridology

[Szdfan]

More seriously, I hadn’t heard of Iridology before, but it strikes me as something that fits into our zeitgeist, in which there is suspicion of institutions and experts and enthusiastic embrace of pseudoscience and whatever crazy stuff we can come up with.

[JohnHurt]

I chose “witchcraft” so I could link to this:

Weighing the results of the poll so far, it appears nobody considers iridology to be anything other than quackery and/or witchcraft. So, on balance, whether she's a witch or a duck ... wood it matter?

They all float, so doesn’t it make them the same thing?

Your "poll" was a hilarious waste of time, and it did remind me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Whether you think a person is a witch or a duck, or a piece of wood, regardless of your opinion, it is still a person, and what you think does not make someone into a piece of wood or a duck, nor will it.

This polling exercise would be like taking a poll of atheists on whether Christ was really the Son of God, or was He was just a religious fable. Duh, like who would win with this poll of Atheists on whether Christ was "real"? I guess Christ never really existed, because most of the atheists that took the poll thought so. That was the level of credibility your poll had.

The "next time" you do a poll, ask whether the person you poll has "any" first hand experience with the subject. Then ask what was the outcome of that experience.

A "poll" of the opinions of men who have never had any real experience with a subject - this is like taking a poll of what we all think about life existing on Neptune or Pluto. It really does not matter what we "think" if we don't have evidence to back it up. Our "opinions" are not reality, nor do they change reality.

I know what I have seen and experienced, first hand.

My friend down the street recently cured several of his medical problems using acupressure, which is also based on these "meridians" that go through our body - and 5,000 years of first hand experience in China. My friend tells me acupressure is curing him of his panic attacks, high blood pressure, and gallstones. I cannot doubt that this works for him. Otherwise I would be calling him a liar. And he would have no reason to lie to me, nor would the Chinese. So to prove a point, I need to find out if acupressure will work for me. If it does, then I gain a benefit, if it doesn't, then I can speak from personal experience that it did not work for me. But I respect the personal experience that my friend has related to me. He is not a liar. Nor am I.

If you tried Iridology, and Iridology did not work for you, and you had a negative result as your own personal experience with Iridology, then you would have the authority to say that it did not work for you.

If you were to say from your own single negative personal experience that Iridology did not work for everyone else, you would be making an unfounded generalization derived from a single specific instance of your own experience - this is a logical fallacy. You cannot prove that Iridology does not work for everyone, just that it did not work for you.

But when you say that Iridology does not work for anyone, and lack even the slightest amount of personal "first hand" experience, then you do not even have a personal basis for your opinions. Your "opinions" are based on what you have read from documents and internet sites the mainstream medical establishment has created to promote their own procedures, which is how they make their obscene profits. You are like a child that repeats whatever their parents believe. You don't have a background for your opinions, as your opinions are not based on your own experience.

The Amish in the community I visit use Iridology. That is a fact, based on my own experience.
People from all over the world come there to be diagnosed. That is a fact based on my first hand experience.
I have personally seen several people receive the correct diagnosis from Iridology. That is a fact that I have witnessed several times. I know their diagnosis from Iridology was correct, because the problem that brought them to the clinic was never told the Amish doctor, and the doctor diagnosed it immediately.

You cannot disprove what I have personally experienced. And I have no reason to lie to you.

I believe your opinions are incorrect, because they are not based on experience. They are based on something that a lot of people "believe" to be true. But what you "believe" does not make it true. Just like if a person floats, then they are a witch. It is still not true, regardless of what you "believe".

When you have had a personal experience with something that is health related, you can talk to me. I would like to know what you have experienced, especially with anything concerning health. But if you can only repeat what you have heard someone say elsewhere, then I am quite busy, as I can read the same articles you have read - all by myself.

I think Wade was the only person that actually brought out his own experience - with an ophthalmologist that also verified that looking into the eyes can determine various diseases. Thanks, Wade. That was great!

By the way, is there anyone that is in their 60's or older on this forum that does not take any medications at all? Or just me, am I the only one?

John Hurt

[Josh]

By the way, is there anyone that is in their 60's or older on this forum that does not take any medications at all? Or just me, am I the only one?

Before modern medicine, people just died before they were 60. The few who were left obviously didn’t have significant health problems.

[DrWojo]

John Hurt wrote:
Your "poll" was a hilarious waste of time, and it did remind me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Whether you think a person is a witch or a duck, or a piece of wood, regardless of your opinion, it is still a person, and what you think does not make someone into a piece of wood or a duck, nor will it.

This polling exercise would be like taking a poll of atheists on whether Christ was really the Son of God, or was He was just a religious fable. Duh, like who would win with this poll of Atheists on whether Christ was "real"? I guess Christ never really existed, because most of the atheists that took the poll thought so. That was the level of credibility your poll had.

The "next time" you do a poll, ask whether the person you poll has "any" first hand experience with the subject. Then ask what was the outcome of that experience.

A "poll" of the opinions of men who have never had any real experience with a subject - this is like taking a poll of what we all think about life existing on Neptune or Pluto. It really does not matter what we "think" if we don't have evidence to back it up. Our "opinions" are not reality, nor do they change reality.

I know what I have seen and experienced, first hand.

My friend down the street recently cured several of his medical problems using acupressure, which is also based on these "meridians" that go through our body - and 5,000 years of first hand experience in China. My friend tells me acupressure is curing him of his panic attacks, high blood pressure, and gallstones. I cannot doubt that this works for him. Otherwise I would be calling him a liar. And he would have no reason to lie to me, nor would the Chinese. So to prove a point, I need to find out if acupressure will work for me. If it does, then I gain a benefit, if it doesn't, then I can speak from personal experience that it did not work for me. But I respect the personal experience that my friend has related to me. He is not a liar. Nor am I.

If you tried Iridology, and Iridology did not work for you, and you had a negative result as your own personal experience with Iridology, then you would have the authority to say that it did not work for you.

If you were to say from your own single negative personal experience that Iridology did not work for everyone else, you would be making an unfounded generalization derived from a single specific instance of your own experience - this is a logical fallacy. You cannot prove that Iridology does not work for everyone, just that it did not work for you.

But when you say that Iridology does not work for anyone, and lack even the slightest amount of personal "first hand" experience, then you do not even have a personal basis for your opinions. Your "opinions" are based on what you have read from documents and internet sites the mainstream medical establishment has created to promote their own procedures, which is how they make their obscene profits. You are like a child that repeats whatever their parents believe. You don't have a background for your opinions, as your opinions are not based on your own experience.

The Amish in the community I visit use Iridology. That is a fact, based on my own experience.
People from all over the world come there to be diagnosed. That is a fact based on my first hand experience.
I have personally seen several people receive the correct diagnosis from Iridology. That is a fact that I have witnessed several times. I know their diagnosis from Iridology was correct, because the problem that brought them to the clinic was never told the Amish doctor, and the doctor diagnosed it immediately.

You cannot disprove what I have personally experienced. And I have no reason to lie to you.

I believe your opinions are incorrect, because they are not based on experience. They are based on something that a lot of people "believe" to be true. But what you "believe" does not make it true. Just like if a person floats, then they are a witch. It is still not true, regardless of what you "believe".

When you have had a personal experience with something that is health related, you can talk to me. I would like to know what you have experienced, especially with anything concerning health. But if you can only repeat what you have heard someone say elsewhere, then I am quite busy, as I can read the same articles you have read - all by myself.

I think Wade was the only person that actually brought out his own experience - with an ophthalmologist that also verified that looking into the eyes can determine various diseases. Thanks, Wade. That was great!

By the way, is there anyone that is in their 60's or older on this forum that does not take any medications at all? Or just me, am I the only one?

John Hurt

Finally, somebody exhibited a decent I.Q. posting on this thread! Thank you, John Hurt.

Except for your post and also an honorable mention to Wade’s, the rest of ‘em on this thread reminds me of the poem Blind Men and the Elephant. I first learned of it while attending a Mennonite Christian Day School – A Poem by John Godfrey Saxe
Here is John Godfrey Saxe’s (1816-1887) version of Blind Men and the Elephant:

It was six men of Indostan,
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approach'd the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee:
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," -quoth he,-
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said- "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL,

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean;
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

[silentreader]

John Hurt wrote:
Your "poll" was a hilarious waste of time, and it did remind me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Whether you think a person is a witch or a duck, or a piece of wood, regardless of your opinion, it is still a person, and what you think does not make someone into a piece of wood or a duck, nor will it.

This polling exercise would be like taking a poll of atheists on whether Christ was really the Son of God, or was He was just a religious fable. Duh, like who would win with this poll of Atheists on whether Christ was "real"? I guess Christ never really existed, because most of the atheists that took the poll thought so. That was the level of credibility your poll had.

The "next time" you do a poll, ask whether the person you poll has "any" first hand experience with the subject. Then ask what was the outcome of that experience.

A "poll" of the opinions of men who have never had any real experience with a subject - this is like taking a poll of what we all think about life existing on Neptune or Pluto. It really does not matter what we "think" if we don't have evidence to back it up. Our "opinions" are not reality, nor do they change reality.

I know what I have seen and experienced, first hand.

My friend down the street recently cured several of his medical problems using acupressure, which is also based on these "meridians" that go through our body - and 5,000 years of first hand experience in China. My friend tells me acupressure is curing him of his panic attacks, high blood pressure, and gallstones. I cannot doubt that this works for him. Otherwise I would be calling him a liar. And he would have no reason to lie to me, nor would the Chinese. So to prove a point, I need to find out if acupressure will work for me. If it does, then I gain a benefit, if it doesn't, then I can speak from personal experience that it did not work for me. But I respect the personal experience that my friend has related to me. He is not a liar. Nor am I.

If you tried Iridology, and Iridology did not work for you, and you had a negative result as your own personal experience with Iridology, then you would have the authority to say that it did not work for you.

If you were to say from your own single negative personal experience that Iridology did not work for everyone else, you would be making an unfounded generalization derived from a single specific instance of your own experience - this is a logical fallacy. You cannot prove that Iridology does not work for everyone, just that it did not work for you.

But when you say that Iridology does not work for anyone, and lack even the slightest amount of personal "first hand" experience, then you do not even have a personal basis for your opinions. Your "opinions" are based on what you have read from documents and internet sites the mainstream medical establishment has created to promote their own procedures, which is how they make their obscene profits. You are like a child that repeats whatever their parents believe. You don't have a background for your opinions, as your opinions are not based on your own experience.

The Amish in the community I visit use Iridology. That is a fact, based on my own experience.
People from all over the world come there to be diagnosed. That is a fact based on my first hand experience.
I have personally seen several people receive the correct diagnosis from Iridology. That is a fact that I have witnessed several times. I know their diagnosis from Iridology was correct, because the problem that brought them to the clinic was never told the Amish doctor, and the doctor diagnosed it immediately.

You cannot disprove what I have personally experienced. And I have no reason to lie to you.

I believe your opinions are incorrect, because they are not based on experience. They are based on something that a lot of people "believe" to be true. But what you "believe" does not make it true. Just like if a person floats, then they are a witch. It is still not true, regardless of what you "believe".

When you have had a personal experience with something that is health related, you can talk to me. I would like to know what you have experienced, especially with anything concerning health. But if you can only repeat what you have heard someone say elsewhere, then I am quite busy, as I can read the same articles you have read - all by myself.

I think Wade was the only person that actually brought out his own experience - with an ophthalmologist that also verified that looking into the eyes can determine various diseases. Thanks, Wade. That was great!

By the way, is there anyone that is in their 60's or older on this forum that does not take any medications at all? Or just me, am I the only one?

John Hurt

Finally, somebody exhibited a decent I.Q. posting on this thread! Thank you, John Hurt.

Except for your post and also an honorable mention to Wade’s, the rest of ‘em on this thread reminds me of the poem Blind Men and the Elephant. I first learned of it while attending a Mennonite Christian Day School – A Poem by John Godfrey Saxe
Here is John Godfrey Saxe’s (1816-1887) version of Blind Men and the Elephant:

It was six men of Indostan,
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approach'd the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee:
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," -quoth he,-
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said- "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL,

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean;
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

Well, that's a pretty interesting attitude from both of you.

[JohnHurt]

By the way, is there anyone that is in their 60's or older on this forum that does not take any medications at all? Or just me, am I the only one?

Before modern medicine, people just died before they were 60. The few who were left obviously didn’t have significant health problems.

Here are some examples the Bible gives us about longevity:

Deut 34:(7) And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

I am absolutely certain Moses did not have access to modern medicine, nor did he eat pork or shellfish. And he was in perfect health.

Joshua lived to be 110 years old:

Joshua 24:(29) And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.

Caleb said in the next few verses that when he was 85 years old, he was still active:

Joshua 14:(10) And now, behold, the LORD hath kept me alive, as he said, these forty and five years, even since the LORD spake this word unto Moses, while the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness: and now, lo, I am this day fourscore and five years old.
(11) As yet I am as strong this day as I was in the day that Moses sent me: as my strength was then, even so is my strength now, for war, both to go out, and to come in.

(A "score" is 20 years).

It is not just how long your live, it is your quality of life and your strength and vitality that are important.

My maternal grandfather was 95 when he died, he had fell out of a barn loft when he was 88 while hammering boards for flooring in the 2nd story of the barn, and broke his pelvis from the fall. After he broke his pelvis, he had to slow down and only lived to be 95. He ate fresh food from his own garden. My maternal grandmother died from a stroke at 72, while she was recuperating from an operation in a hospital. She may have been killed by a doctor. They said some plaque broke loose from the surgery and lodged in her brain.

My great grandmother lived to be 91 and was a joy to talk to, very sharp until the day she died.

My father in law lived to be 92, my mother in law died at 89. The nursing home staff could not believe that they were not on blood pressure medicine, or some type of prescription medication. They were very happy and healthy, with a positive attitude about life.

My paternal grandmother only lived to be 88, but she at a lot of junk food. My paternal grandfather drank and smoked Pall Mall cigarettes, and had a heart attack at 65. He somewhat killed himself.

Both of my parents died at 59, I believe they were poisoned by an industrial degreaser that was pumped into the groundwater near their well. Also, Dad may have killed himself by all of the junk food he ate. He had no regard for his own body. I think Mom was killed by the doctors. They prescribed estrogen, which caused breast cancer and made her gain weight when she got off of it to stop the cancer. So, she got on a "medical diet" to lose the weight, which overworked her liver, and the breast cancer came back in her liver. She went to Duke University to be used as a guinea pig from a new type of chemotherapy treatment, which ate her alive. Very sad way to go. But she trusted the doctors completely.

If people are dying around you from various illnesses, you need to look at how they live their lives, and NOT do what they do. There are a LOT of sick people walking around today, in a "pre-morbid" condition. They seem to have a lot of aches and pains, they are stiff, and cannot do much. Or their minds are not very sharp.

Everyone I have seen that has lived more than 85 or 90 years old with good health and a sharp mind has eaten their food directly from their own garden, and they do not drink city water. They also get lots of exercise. These people are my role models.

And I have never met an old doctor, that is, one that practices pharmacopeia out of some book. If you ever find a 90 year old doctor, ask him when he quit being a doctor, and if he still takes prescription medications. I would be interested what you find out.

Best wishes, and I hope you find good health.

John

[Hats Off]

My concern with some of these things that do work, are not that they work. If they didn't work, it would be of no concern to me. My question always is - what power are we submitting to when they do work?

I am over 60 and take 5 or 6 prescription medications. Do they work? My blood pressure is controlled; my cholesterol is under control. Would there be other more "natural" ways to do the same thing? Probably! If I could fully trust in God, my blood pressure would not be an issue. I am human - just as human as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; just as human as David and Solomon.

[Wade]

My concern with some of these things that do work, are not that they work. If they didn't work, it would be of no concern to me. My question always is - what power are we submitting to when they do work?

I am over 60 and take 5 or 6 prescription medications. Do they work? My blood pressure is controlled; my cholesterol is under control. Would there be other more "natural" ways to do the same thing? Probably! If I could fully trust in God, my blood pressure would not be an issue. I am human - just as human as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; just as human as David and Solomon.

Careful, a friend who is 63 told me the other day he has taken high blood pressure medication for nearly 15 years. It turns out that over time they found out this drug is not good for prolonged use but his doctor continued to give him the prescription. It was only recently after his doctor retired that his new doctor noticed this big problem. Now my friend's liver and kidneys are shutting down from following his doctors advice... I can't recall the name of the drug.

[Josh]

Finally, somebody exhibited a decent I.Q. posting on this thread! Thank you, John Hurt.

I’m not sure we should get into the business of assessing IQs of posters in this thread; however, as someone who is a semi-professional in such line of work and associates with actual professionals, I am sorry to assert that the people who create and research IQ tests would report that low IQ people are more likely to believe in things like iridology or other things not generally accepted by society.

This by no means it is either good or bad. I’m just pointing out that calling people’s posts low IQ and high IQ is either disingenuous or misinformed.

[Hats Off]

My concern with some of these things that do work, are not that they work. If they didn't work, it would be of no concern to me. My question always is - what power are we submitting to when they do work?

I am over 60 and take 5 or 6 prescription medications. Do they work? My blood pressure is controlled; my cholesterol is under control. Would there be other more "natural" ways to do the same thing? Probably! If I could fully trust in God, my blood pressure would not be an issue. I am human - just as human as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; just as human as David and Solomon.

Careful, a friend who is 63 told me the other day he has taken high blood pressure medication for nearly 15 years. It turns out that over time they found out this drug is not good for prolonged use but his doctor continued to give him the prescription. It was only recently after his doctor retired that his new doctor noticed this big problem. Now my friend's liver and kidneys are shutting down from following his doctors advice... I can't recall the name of the drug.

Thanks, Wade - there is certainly an element of risk with all prescription drugs. We believe our pharmacist is a double check on what the doctor prescribes. She has been know to call the doctor's office and suggest a better product to use in combination with a patient's other factors.