I think we are in trouble

[justme]

I think the country is in real trouble.

between the stories that i'm reading about immigration, and the war plans chat debacle, and rfk jr, and grandiose stories of fraud that turns out to be so much less than it really is, this country is headed in the wrong direction fast. there doesn't seem to be any competent leadership.

i think maybe the immigration stories are what bother me the most. they really bother me.

and i'm not sure what i really want in this thread. maybe a request for the usual posters to let those of us who don't usually talk much, have a chance to talk.

[R7ehr]

Just keep living and doing things of some importance. Ignore or don't worry so much about national level issues, and focus on local people, or issues that you can impact and help improve. It doesn't do any good to wallow mentally in the cesspool of national or global politics. Spend that mental and emotional energy more wisely. God is looking out for His people.

We all pay some attention. We all could choose to pay less attention.

[barnhart]

R7ehr has good advice. Jesus has left us clear indication what things his sheep care about and worrying over Rome isn't one of them. If our hope lies in good government then we are in trouble.

[Wesleyb]

Yes, the others have given good advice. I’ve started paying less attention to the news because each day just seems to be another predictable step on the road to where I’m pretty sure we’re headed. There’s nothing I can do about it. Shock and outrage won’t turn the ship around. God will provide.

There is however I think a proper place for grieving what we’re losing and also for considering how we can best protect ourselves and our families from dangers we haven’t faced before and how we can help those that are more vulnerable than we are.

[Jazman]

Just keep living and doing things of some importance. Ignore or don't worry so much about national level issues, and focus on local people, or issues that you can impact and help improve. It doesn't do any good to wallow mentally in the cesspool of national or global politics. Spend that mental and emotional energy more wisely. God is looking out for His people.

We all pay some attention. We all could choose to pay less attention.

Yes... but not so much to that last line, depending on the issue... maybe there are some things we can give less attention to (like partisan battles on social media and in Congress.. recent threat of gov shutdown etc). You have a point.

But when it comes to children and families of (legal! or even questionable status) immigrants, migrants and the foreigners among us, as the OT refers to them, then NO, we should be paying More attention... They are our neighbors and we are called by Jesus and the Bible (OT & NT) to love and care for them, especially during this vibe of scapegoating, dehumanizing them and hurting them for spite's sake (And that is largely the motivation - revenge, selfishness, and a very wicked, unChristlike attitude of - "I'm entitled to more; they're entitled to much less, even as far as to barbarisms like snatching legal/non-criminal off the street and throwing them into a Central American prison without cause...)

I think it's wholly Christ-like to pay attention to that kind of thing. He may even be asking us to do more than just "pay attention"?

[barnhart]

God has a history of allowing his people to live in pagan empires for his purposes. In Jeremiah 29 he tells them to pursue normal life, marry, have children and seek the benefit of the city where he has put them and to ignore the false prophets who want to rebel and move back to the promised land.

I think some of the angst of the American church is the creeping reality that America is not God's chosen vessel, the shining city on a hill or his covenant people but actually a pagan empire destined for judgement. The typical response of the church seems to be to reform it until it again becomes the apple of God's eye or to tear down and destroy. Neither of those responses align with Jeremiah 29.

I think the apocalyptic literature in the scripture was given to free us to live in daily faithfulness, confident the long plan is well under control. It looks like we have done the opposite by reading the apocalypse into the present to inspire fear and desperation that things are out of control.

[GaryK]

God has a history of allowing his people to live in pagan empires for his purposes. In Jeremiah 29 he tells them to pursue normal life, marry, have children and seek the benefit of the city where he has put them and to ignore the false prophets who want to rebel and move back to the promised land.

I think some of the angst of the American church is the creeping reality that America is not God's chosen vessel, the shining city on a hill or his covenant people but actually a pagan empire destined for judgement. The typical response of the church seems to be to reform it until it again becomes the apple of God's eye or to tear down and destroy. Neither of those responses align with Jeremiah 29.

I think the apocalyptic literature in the scripture was given to free us to live in daily faithfulness, confident the long plan is well under control. It looks like we have done the opposite by reading the apocalypse into the present to inspire fear and desperation that things are out of control.

Well said barnhart.

[JohnL]

Yes, the others have given good advice. I’ve started paying less attention to the news because each day just seems to be another predictable step on the road to where I’m pretty sure we’re headed. There’s nothing I can do about it. Shock and outrage won’t turn the ship around. God will provide.

There is however I think a proper place for grieving what we’re losing and also for considering how we can best protect ourselves and our families from dangers we haven’t faced before and how we can help those that are more vulnerable than we are.

I'm on the same page as these gentlmen. Less time in the news more time with the Bible, our family at home and at church, and with friends. We can't stop the world from spinning out of control. We can only help those within our geographic reach. At least that's the way I look at it. Keeping my eyes on the prize who is Jesus and doing what he would do.

[Neto]

God has a history of allowing his people to live in pagan empires for his purposes. In Jeremiah 29 he tells them to pursue normal life, marry, have children and seek the benefit of the city where he has put them and to ignore the false prophets who want to rebel and move back to the promised land.

I think some of the angst of the American church is the creeping reality that America is not God's chosen vessel, the shining city on a hill or his covenant people but actually a pagan empire destined for judgement. The typical response of the church seems to be to reform it until it again becomes the apple of God's eye or to tear down and destroy. Neither of those responses align with Jeremiah 29.

I think the apocalyptic literature in the scripture was given to free us to live in daily faithfulness, confident the long plan is well under control. It looks like we have done the opposite by reading the apocalypse into the present to inspire fear and desperation that things are out of control.

I question only that one word, again. As observed by the Mennonites in the colonies during the time that the provisions of the previlegeo were being undermined and eroded, as there was growing talk of migrating to North America, the opinion that the USA was a nation founded on rebellion and violence against her king was strongly maintained. (They also 'prophesied' that because of this beginning, it was a nation doomed to destruction - something that has not yet occurred, despite the intervening 150 + years.)

I think that there is a lesson here, not only from these observations back then, but from the errors made by those who were making these comments - their over-dependence and confidence in the earthly king under which they themselves lived, and before whom they 'bowed the knee'. This is an easy pit to fall into, and we must take notice of this severe danger to the collective 'soul' of the church.

[JohnH]

If you were around right-wing people back in the 1990s, Bill Clinton's Presidency was a grave threat to America's freedom - I remember hearing people talk about how they were going to come for "our guns" first, deprive of us "our jobs" via NAFTA (well, I guess that did happen), and eventually round up Christians and put them in camps. Events like Ruby Ridge and the Branch Dividians in Waco fueled these feelings. Nonetheless, the American republic survived. Some people said then "we are in trouble".

Next came the Bush administration. We had 9/11 happen, and the result of that was a huge loss of liberty via the Patriot act and a massive expansion of federal government, ranging from No Child Left Behind to expanding Medicaid to prescription drugs (in a bizarre, ham-fisted way with things like "donut holes"), and an ever-expanding surveillance and "national security" bureaucracy. We were sold a war against Iraq on false pretenses, and millions of people died. Not enough people said "we are in trouble"; some on the left did, and they were mocked. The right wing stayed asleep, seemingly forgetting their principles against expanding government or deficit spending - and a housing bubble had been created.

Then Obama was elected, and the Affordable Care Act was passed. There were more proclamations of just how much trouble we were in, along with wild theories about how Obama was actually born in another country and/or was some kind of antichrist. But that was overshadowed by the housing crash and the glacial recovery from it. For many, they really were in trouble. Rampant spending on debt in the Bush years meant the bills had come do. Lots of people lost everything, especially in the construction industry. I heard many Mennonites gripe and complain about how terrible it was they had to pay a "penalty" for not having health insurance. When I would remind them there was an exemption specifically for Amish & Mennonite people, they just looked puzzled. One man walked away when I told him that. He just wanted to complain about Obama and the Democrats. Gratefulness for our government and our leaders was sorely lacking.

Next came Trump. Right wing or left wing, I have never seen so many warnings of what terrible things would happen. Yet these were years of relative peace and quiet. Not much happened other than an economic recovery. Trump tried to repeal Obamacare with no real plan for what to replace it with, and the Republicans had no plan either, so they ended up just repealing the "penalty" for not having insurance. A modest change to the tax code happened, which boosted the economy. Lots of people were happy since jobs become more plentiful, but other people were very unhappy because they felt that Trump was some kind of evil dictator. Nonetheless, that didn't happen. But then a disease spread throughout the land - once again, we thought we were in trouble. We hid in our homes, abandoning schools and church, and many were told not to even go to work. We started rampant debt spending again. Billions were sent to the pharmaceutical industry. Trump "fast tracked" a vaccine to somehow cure us. Yet in the end, it turned out we weren't in that bad of a trouble, and we destroyed our economy for basically a bad cold. Trump squandered 3 very good years for 1 year of pointless lockdowns.

Then Biden was put in office. Oh my, the apocalyptic warnings! This is the end! We are really in trouble now! Many believe he wasn't even elected, and this was the end of fair elections for good. Lockdowns got worse, vaccines were threatened to be mandatory if you wanted a job, the economy crashed even worse. Some wealthy people prospered, able to sit at home on their laptops and earn six figure incomes. The less-wealthy did not prosper. But slowly, things reopened, and people decided to get back to normal. Everyone just "forgot" about the vaccine mandates, mask mandates, and lockdowns. We wanted to get back to normal. It turns out that we were not in as bad of a trouble as we thought, right or left. Then the wars happened: first Russia decided Crimea wasn't enough and it wanted to secure the Donbas too. Four years later, it is still trying, and nearly a million have lost their lives. Then Hamas decided it would be a good idea to pick a fight. Young people at a party in the desert were kidnapped, and it spread turmoil throughout the whole world, with people feeling they had to choose a side.

Now I hear the same voices that were shrieking during Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden. Yet here we are. Government will probably continue to be bureaucratic. Debts will keep growing. Government will probably remain huge, and keep spending on questionable things. Questionable military operations will continue. There might be another war somewhere. But I don't think "we are in trouble" any more than we were in the past.