A Vote for Democracy?

[Ernie]

Democrats are quite happy about the elections that happened last week...

They are taking it as an affirmation that Americans are still democratic at heart and even though there are 2020 election deniers, that movement is losing steam. There might be some truth in this in at least some places but I am not sure it was the only factor in many of the swing states and regions.

I'm guessing that the reasons that Democrats won as many races as they did has more to do with the liberalizing of America and the fact that Americans vote for those they think will help them pay their bills due to the high inflation. (Interestingly they vote for the people who helped cause the inflation in the first place.)

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.- Alexander Fraser Tytler or Alexis de Tocqueville

Thoughts?

[Ken]

My take is that there is a "silent majority" in this country that tends to pull things back to the center.

The term was coined in the 1960s when the country seemed to be spiraling out of control on many levels from the Vietnam war to rapid social change to sex, drugs, and rock and roll. The noisy people at that time that the "silent majority" was responding to were these folks (Woodstock and Kent State):




and the election of Nixon basically jerked the country back to the center.

Fast forward to the present day and the noisy people pushing the fringe of what is politically acceptable are these people:




And the "silent majority" basically repudiated them in 2020 and 2022 and pulled the country back towards the center.

Personally I think this past election (and the 2020 election) was more a repudiation of Trump and MAGA Trumpism and a pulling the nation back towards the center than any affirmative support for Democrats or Democratic policies. I think the "silent majority" of Americans basically want a government that leaves them alone and that they can pretty much forget about on a day to day basis. That runs effectively in the background doing all the necessary stuff so they can get on with their own lives. Biden has more or less been providing that. Trump was always pushing himself into the forefront with endless scandals and whining. That might thrill his minority of loyal supporters. But a silent majority of Americans were just weary of it.

I don't think either party is really going to learn the lessons of 2022. If not Trump, the GOP seems likely to go down the path of another mini-Trump in the form of DeSantis rather than some less polarizing figure like say Glenn Youngkin, the governor of Virginia. And without Trump on the scene to unify Democrats, they are likely to fracture into various factions again like in 2016.

It will be interesting to see if Trump continues with his planned announcement to run in 2024 that is apparently scheduled for Tuesday at Mar a Lago. If he does it will make a whole lot of powerful Republicans cringe in dismay.

[ohio jones]

And the "silent majority" basically repudiated them in 2020 and 2022 and pulled the country back towards the center.

The center ain't where it used to be.

[Ken]

And the "silent majority" basically repudiated them in 2020 and 2022 and pulled the country back towards the center.

The center ain't where it used to be.

Maybe not. But times change. And today in 2022 the election-denying MAGA right is no more representative of the "center" than the BLM "defund the police" activists on the left. American politics has a tendency to eventually snap things back to the center, wherever it might lie in a given moment in time. And it is the mostly quiet folks in the middle who make that happen.

I think we can thank democracy for that, because without their voice I think we would be much more likely slide into extremism in either the left or right like so man other countries that lack robust democratic traditions. That is what happens in some Latin American countries that experience violent swings from left to right, often punctuated by violence.

[temporal1]

.. the election-denying MAGA right ..

The convenient construct of career politicians and their fawning media, had they not chosen to create/magnify, would be a distant memory, while the country would be more productively focused on Ukraine, China, the Middle East, immigration, cartels n the U.S., inflation, fuel costs, etc., etc.

However, this recent election reflects what a political powerhouse career politicians have created, confirming party lines run so deep, “candidate quality” is a farce, literally any party-chosen warm body will prevail. (not out of the blue.) now beyond dispute.

The level of influence wrought is breath taking.
“1) Make up a designated ferocious enemy, 2) Distract from reality, 3) Voila’ - pretend “free+fair” elections!

The Electoral College may be the single remaining hedge for the U.S. representative democratic republic.
i believe some form of the EC should be implemented on state levels, possibly, some states have it? i’m not sure.

However, in states like mine, Illinois, i don’t see any hope of such a change - with Dems deeply entrenched in Chicago, they would refuse to allow it. i suppose it would have had to have been implemented early-on, the EC is always unwanted by the losing party.

i’m not sure what’s ahead, but it doesn’t look good. Every evil thing is in its glory days.
They’re celebrating, for sure! Pride has its own untouchable gaudy flag. Should everyone just join in the fun? Men, women, children?! - Officially: No telling the difference!


^^ Marvelous. The answer to everyone’s dream life on earth. Just ask them.

- - - - - - -

‘Democrats don’t got nobody’: Charlamagne frets that Dems have no one to challenge Trump or DeSantis
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2022/11/13 ... s-1308755/

They don’t, and it does not matter.
It will be whomever they choose, quality is the least of their concern. They LAUGH at the idea.
THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS Full stop.

[Robert]

And today in 2022 the election-denying MAGA right is no more representative of the "center" than the BLM "defund the police" activists on the left.

I disagree. The overton window has shifted really far to the left.

The stronger than expected Democratic votes came from young unmarried women. They were convinced that the Republicans were going to take away abortions. Thanks to Lindsey Graham, they were very motivated to vote.

I am an election questioner, not denier. That is a very unfair word. I strongly question the past 5 or so elections. I am not MAGA, but level headed, for the most part, and I see lots of reasons to question the way elections are done.

I could easily develop software to tabulate votes. It is not hard. They make it complicated and hide the software. I ask why.

[temporal1]

.. election questioner, not denier. ..

dog whistles are now political gold.

.. young unmarried women ..

they’d better love their government, stats reflect, ain’t nobody gonna be marryin’ them!

.. I could easily develop software to tabulate votes. It is not hard. They make it complicated and hide the software. I ask why.

yep. the “tech” is there. EASY.


Nobody bats an eye at how micromanaged stats have become, everyone’s personal data, gender, ethnicity, race, religion, address, etc., are recorded, in detail - yet, when deemed not convenient (for some) cries of “it’s complicated,” “we can’t possibly do that,” etc., ring out. Not convincing.

[temporal1]

Recently, i revisited DanZ’s thread regarding peacemaking after the (2016 election).
(When he wrote it, “polls were showing” a solid win for hillary.) (It’s well to have a good sense of humor.)

“How soon we forget” -
It’s also well to remember .. in this case, remember how politicians fear-monger in attempt to sway votes.

2016 / DanZ / Peacemaking after the Election
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46

I've been around for a number of these elections...and I don't remember one with this much rancor, mudslinging, emotion...and yes, even hate. Frankly, it concerns me. Relational bridges are already burning...and the burning might continue literally after the election, because someone is going to [lose] ...and some people are going to be hugely disappointing - and very angry

(both sides have framed this election as either saving or damning the democracy).

Jesus calls us to be peacemakers.

So...for us as Anabaptist Christians, representatives of the way of Peace and the triumph of the Kingdom of Love...

How are we going to respond post-election in light of the relational harm already done, and in the midst of all of the potential incivility and hate that might lie ahead?

(Thought: In preparation, many of us have been sucked in, and we may need to begin with repentance for the feelings of bitterness we have harbored and the ways we have contributed to the rancor and ugliness).

I think we need to be ready to respond to the sickness and dysfunction that this election had brought out.

DanZ was spot-on about some being very angry. (i’m pretty sure) he was calling libs to prepare to be gracious winners.

unfortunately, win or lose, “gracious” is no longer a priority.

strangely, the more libs “win” the unhappier they are. they must have “more!” there is no peace, no satiety.
it’s just a nonpartisan fact: false gods do not satisfy.

social norms are taught, beginning in cradles, in families and churches.
with so many families compromised/destroyed, pews emptied, social norms are altered. tragic for those inheriting.

[barnhart]

Democrats are quite happy about the elections that happened last week...

They are taking it as an affirmation that Americans are still democratic at heart and even though there are 2020 election deniers, that movement is losing steam. There might be some truth in this in at least some places but I am not sure it was the only factor in many of the swing states and regions.

I'm guessing that the reasons that Democrats won as many races as they did has more to do with the liberalizing of America and the fact that Americans vote for those they think will help them pay their bills due to the high inflation. (Interestingly they vote for the people who helped cause the inflation in the first place.)

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.- Alexander Fraser Tytler or Alexis de Tocqueville

Thoughts?

It sounds plausible but it also sounds Hegelian because it claims authority over the course of history and the future. This type of thinking did not predict the rise of austerity politics as symbolized by Reagan and Thatcher and I doubt it will predict what comes next.

One reason I am skeptical of this reasoning is it's presuppositions around society. For this to work, society must function like a bank ledger with all human value converted to money value. The assumption being the value of a society is the the sum of individual contributions after subtracting individual expense. Under this ideology there is pressure to divide society between contributors who consume less than they contribute, and takers who accounts are deemed in the red.

I favor a societal model that recognizes more innate value in individuals. I think there is evidence that standards of living (societal wealth) increases at a higher rate than the accumulated individual contributions because of ideas like specialization and human creativity. An economy is not a zero sum endeavor where one person rises only at the expense of another. We are "richer" together than apart.

[joshuabgood]

Democrats are quite happy about the elections that happened last week...

They are taking it as an affirmation that Americans are still democratic at heart and even though there are 2020 election deniers, that movement is losing steam. There might be some truth in this in at least some places but I am not sure it was the only factor in many of the swing states and regions.

I'm guessing that the reasons that Democrats won as many races as they did has more to do with the liberalizing of America and the fact that Americans vote for those they think will help them pay their bills due to the high inflation. (Interestingly they vote for the people who helped cause the inflation in the first place.)

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.- Alexander Fraser Tytler or Alexis de Tocqueville

Thoughts?

I agree with what Harlan said but would add a technical note here:

I don't think one can really assign to the Democrats with the notion that they are the people who caused inflation. Both historically, as well as in the Covid years, the willingness to juice the monetary supply, depend on fractional reserve banking, and currency by fiat...as been an issue pretty much all parties were practically in favor of. (The GOP on some occasions, and the Democrats on others, gave lip service to offering another model, but everything from Reagan's deficits, to Bush's checks in the mail, to the quantitative easing of the 00's, to PPP and Covid stimulus, has had bipartisan support.)