Josh wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:07 am
Ken, any reasonable analysis would look at the situation up through Jan. 2020, unless you’re going to tell us Covid is Trump’s fault now too.
Grace asks us to look at Trump's record. That is part of his record. In any event, we can basically separate Trump's immigration policy into four main initiatives:
1. His wall which Mexico was supposed to pay for that most border experts say does nothing to address the primary issues facing immigration and border security (most drugs pass right through regular ports of entry). He even tried to shut down the government when HIS OWN REPUBLICAN CONGRESS didn't authorize funding for it.
2. His Muslim Ban in 2016 which was tied up in court all the way to the Supreme Court and eventually abandoned.
3. His Child Separation policy which was an enormous fiasco and eventually rejected by the courts in 2018
4. His Title 42 emergency closure of the border due to the COVID Public Health Emergency.
Which one of those Trump policies do you think Biden should reinstate? We still have people dying of COVID in this country. Maybe that one? Put back the vaccination mandates and so forth?
Do you support spending $100 billion on arms and other military aid to Ukraine and Israel?
The reason the Republicans tanked the border bill had nothing to do with opposition to military aid to Ukraine and Israel. They insisted that these two things get tied together in order to get what they wanted. They got a lot of what they wanted and then turned around and tanked it because Donald Trump wants to use the border as a campaign point.
That wasn’t what I asked. Do you support spending $100 billion on arms and other military aid? That’s my chief objection to this bill.
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:07 am
Ken, any reasonable analysis would look at the situation up through Jan. 2020, unless you’re going to tell us Covid is Trump’s fault now too.
Grace asks us to look at Trump's record. That is part of his record. In any event, we can basically separate Trump's immigration policy into four main initiatives:
1. His wall which Mexico was supposed to pay for that most border experts say does nothing to address the primary issues facing immigration and border security (most drugs pass right through regular ports of entry). He even tried to shut down the government when HIS OWN REPUBLICAN CONGRESS didn't authorize funding for it.
I recall the Democrats complaining it would cost $5 billion and that was too much. Yet now we’re supposed to spend $20 billion on this border bill (plus $100 billion in extra missiles and bombs?)
3. His Child Separation policy which was an enormous fiasco and eventually rejected by the courts in 2018
As has been documented extensively, this policy was started by Obama, and mostly involved separating children from traffickers and other people unrelated to them.
4. His Title 42 emergency closure of the border due to the COVID Public Health Emergency.
Which proved it’s possible to stop illegal crossings. So why can’t we just do that?
Re: 2024 Border Legislation
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:50 am
by GaryK
The Biden administration is considering executive action to deter illegal migration at the southern border
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:07 pm
Biden inherited the worst unemployment rate in 40 years along with that low immigration rate. Job loss under Trump was the greatest in half a century.
You do realize it is all connected don't you?
We can go back to the Trump economy and immigration will drop right off as if by magic.
Those rates were post pandemic and not a fair comparison. Of course unemployment levels and job loss was high after a drastic artificial shut down of the economy. That was not Trump's fault. Pre-pandemic unemployment rates under Trump were 3.5% by the end of 2019. Still better than Biden’s current rate. Biden touts all the jobs he created under his administration. Of course that is a lie, because a high percentage of those jobs were people going back to work after the government shutdown was lifted. And add to that he doesn’t account for is all the people that need to take two, some even three jobs to just eek by under his economy.
And yes because of the pandemic, Title 42 was enacted, which impacted illegal migration. The amount of illegal’s crossing the border before the pandemic was still much lower, than Biden’s. And it doesn’t change the fact that during the first year of Biden being in office, the amount of illegal’s crossing the border was higher than the total of Trump’s four years in office.
Trump’s first year in office- 2016 total 408,870
Biden’s first year in office – 2021 total 1,956,519
That is a difference of 1,547,649 more under Biden. But I am sure him signing over 90 executive orders to open the border had nothing to do with those differences (sic).
Which one of those Trump policies do you think Biden should reinstate? We still have people dying of COVID in this country. Maybe that one? Put back the vaccination mandates and so forth?
In a prior post I said what he could do. But most importantly he could shut down the border with a proclamation and a stroke of a pen, under 8USC-1182 F Act.(212 F). He could reverse the over 90 executive orders he signed that opened the border.
Do you support spending $100 billion on arms and other military aid to Ukraine and Israel?
The reason the Republicans tanked the border bill had nothing to do with opposition to military aid to Ukraine and Israel. They insisted that these two things get tied together in order to get what they wanted. They got a lot of what they wanted and then turned around and tanked it because Donald Trump wants to use the border as a campaign point.
In other words, as they've proven numerous times before... the current GOP, especially elected ones in Congress, along with their party leader, are cynical, bad-faith actors. Many regular-joe, main street (my neighbors!) GOP voters are not like this, but many of the people they vote into office and for some reason, trust, are. It suggests these bad faith actors may not really care about their constituents concerns either, certainly not in a real problem-solving kind of way...
Re: 2024 Border Legislation
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:54 pm
by Josh
Jazman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 12:01 pm
In other words, as they've proven numerous times before... the current GOP, especially elected ones in Congress, along with their party leader, are cynical, bad-faith actors. Many regular-joe, main street (my neighbors!) GOP voters are not like this, but many of the people they vote into office and for some reason, trust, are. It suggests these bad faith actors may not really care about their constituents concerns either, certainly not in a real problem-solving kind of way...
And isn't it a bit of a sign of bad faith that the current Democratic Party (particularly the elected ones in the Senate and White House), along with their leadership, are cynical bad-faith actors when after not getting the bill loaded up with $100 billion in spending for new bombs and missiles and tanks and artillery shells... they're somehow able to suddenly take executive action on the border after refusing to do so for 3 years?
I think you may overestimate how much support there is from rank and file conservative voters for this bill. Notably, this bill had a great deal of support in the Senate, which is one of the most elitist bodies can think of in America. Yes, it had "bipartisan support" (most bills promoting a lot more war spending do). It does not have the support of the Republican electorate - and I think that's a good thing. It's good to see people saying "no" to more war.
Re: 2024 Border Legislation
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:05 pm
by ohio jones
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:03 am
His wall which Mexico was supposed to pay for that most border experts say does nothing to address the primary issues facing immigration and border security (most drugs pass right through regular ports of entry).
I think you're conflating several different border problems and their potential solutions:
1. People entering illegally, not through legal ports of entry.
2. People entering illegally through legal ports of entry.
3. Illegal goods (or in the case of drugs, bads) entering through legal ports of entry.
4. Illegal goods (and bads) entering outside legal ports of entry.
A physical barrier that forces basically all land traffic through legal ports of entry would curb 1 and 4, allowing security to be concentrated at ports of entry, where they can do a more efficient and effective job of controlling illegal attempts at entry. This is only logical, regardless of who is promoting it.
Mexico would have to crack down on trebuchets, but that's not really land traffic, strictly speaking.
Re: 2024 Border Legislation
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:31 pm
by Szdfan
ohio jones wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:05 pm
Mexico would have to crack down on trebuchets, but that's not really land traffic, strictly speaking.