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Valerie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 9:28 pm As a Mennonite man said to me, it doesn't matter where you've been but where you're going.

Was that man Steve-in-kville?
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6061

RZehr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:33 am

Valerie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 9:28 pm As a Mennonite man said to me, it doesn't matter where you've been but where you're going.

Was that man Steve-in-kville?
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6061

Must be a common Mennonite saying.no, it was the owner of a clock repair business years ago.

People do get to change their minds. People change their minds all the time.

The disagreement here is whether Trump’s switch to a pro-life stance is an authentic change of heart or political opportunism. My sense is that Trump’s core values are his self-interests and everything else is transactional. Trump suddenly becomes pro-life the minute he runs for the Republican nomination for President? Uh huh.

So I think his recent criticism of the six week abortion ban and his refusal to answer questions about the fifteen week abortion ban are because of politics, not because of any deep convictions.

Szdfan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:08 am People do get to change their minds. People change their minds all the time.

The disagreement here is whether Trump’s switch to a pro-life stance is an authentic change of heart or political opportunism. My sense is that Trump’s core values are his self-interests and everything else is transactional. Trump suddenly becomes pro-life the minute he runs for the Republican nomination for President? Uh huh.

So I think his recent criticism of the six week abortion ban and his refusal to answer questions about the fifteen week abortion ban are because of politics, not because of any deep convictions.

I agree. In the interview and in other places, the reasons he gave for his change of mind were entirely political. They were about winning.

This is a political argument, not a moral one:

Trump wrote:I think the Republicans speak very inarticulately about this subject. I watch some of them without the exceptions, et cetera, et cetera. I said, ‘Other than certain parts of the country, you can’t — you’re not going to win on this issue. But you will win on this issue when you come up with the right number of weeks.’ Because Democrats don’t want to be radical on the issue, most of them, some do. They don’t want to be radical on the issue. They don’t want to kill a baby in the seventh month or the ninth month or after birth. And they’re allowed to do that, and you can’t do that.

He's probably reading the politics correctly. Most Republicans don't want to ban abortion in the first trimester either. And most Democrats don't want abortion after 24 weeks - roughly the time that a baby would be viable if born with significant life-saving interventions.



In polls, people give very different answers about how many weeks depending on how you phrase the question.

So I think Trump is just following the polls here. And I don't think he has ever given a speech where he outlines what he believes about abortion and why, provides a moral basis for his views, etc. That's not really his style. I rarely hear him telling us to think and act morally on any subject. I don't think I would choose his life as an example for how we should live as Christians.

Szdfan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:08 am People do get to change their minds. People change their minds all the time.

The disagreement here is whether Trump’s switch to a pro-life stance is an authentic change of heart or political opportunism. My sense is that Trump’s core values are his self-interests and everything else is transactional. Trump suddenly becomes pro-life the minute he runs for the Republican nomination for President? Uh huh.

So I think his recent criticism of the six week abortion ban and his refusal to answer questions about the fifteen week abortion ban are because of politics, not because of any deep convictions.

I wish more politicians would be “political opportunists” about not starting wars and killing babies.

Szdfan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:08 am People do get to change their minds. People change their minds all the time.

The disagreement here is whether Trump’s switch to a pro-life stance is an authentic change of heart or political opportunism. My sense is that Trump’s core values are his self-interests and everything else is transactional. Trump suddenly becomes pro-life the minute he runs for the Republican nomination for President? Uh huh.

So I think his recent criticism of the six week abortion ban and his refusal to answer questions about the fifteen week abortion ban are because of politics, not because of any deep convictions.

I think there is a lot of truth in this. I am not sure I would agree with everything, but I felt the same way in 2016. This is why I did not vote for Trump that cycle. I did not trust his words. I still do not trust his words. I look at actions with him now. This is why I am not as fearful or worried about him. His actions were much more measured. He did a lot to save lives. I do think that is a core issue with him. He may not come out at the same place on abortion as me, but he does care about life in general. I can respect that. That means less wars and returning to some kind of value for life within the policies of the government. I think that is a good thing.

The Abraham Accords are still bearing fruit. More Muslim countries are finding peace with Israel.

I would still rather see a Ramaswamy president then a Trump second term, but I am not afraid of a Trump second term. I am quite worried about a Biden second term. I care little about his gaffes. That is why I never post all the ones he makes, and he makes them daily. I am concerned about his policies. The economy, Ukraine, and the border just to name a few. All three are headed in the wrong direction for me. There is plenty more like Green policy, abortion, FBI and DOJ corruption that I could easily add to the list.

Yep. Trump has a list too, but they seem more process issues. I do not see the J6 event as an insurrection, but a riot just as Portland and the BLM events. I try hard not to let my distaste for Trump cloud the positive actions I saw during his term.

I'll throw this into the discussion... Why the Pro-Life Movement Wasn't Ready for a Post-Roe World
Thought provoking points as well as what many of the post-article commentators talk about as well. (The Dispatch is one of few where post article discussion stays pretty on topic, civil and therefore interesting and worthwhile.)

Jazman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:25 pm I'll throw this into the discussion... Why the Pro-Life Movement Wasn't Ready for a Post-Roe World
Thought provoking points as well as what many of the post-article commentators talk about as well. (The Dispatch is one of few where post article discussion stays pretty on topic, civil and therefore interesting and worthwhile.)

It's sad to see voters voting to kill babies. Every single voter will be judged on judgment day for what they did. I suspect many will say, "Lord, Lord", and Jesus will say "I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me."

They will go away into eternal punishment.

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:17 pm

Jazman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:25 pm I'll throw this into the discussion... Why the Pro-Life Movement Wasn't Ready for a Post-Roe World
Thought provoking points as well as what many of the post-article commentators talk about as well. (The Dispatch is one of few where post article discussion stays pretty on topic, civil and therefore interesting and worthwhile.)

It's sad to see voters voting to kill babies. Every single voter will be judged on judgment day for what they did. I suspect many will say, "Lord, Lord", and Jesus will say "I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me."

They will go away into eternal punishment.

That might include many GOP voters as well... who've spent the last 30-40 yrs voting for tax cuts for the wealthy and corp. and criminalizing abortion and not much else of substance that would help and incentivize mothers and families to carry pregnancies to term...

Besides that, your argument might work / make sense for the churched crowd here; but most of America is unchurched and so in order to change their hearts & minds on the matter, you'll have to use different lines of reasoning.

Jazman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:23 am That might include many GOP voters as well... who've spent the last 30-40 yrs voting for tax cuts for the wealthy and corp. and criminalizing abortion and not much else of substance that would help and incentivize mothers and families to carry pregnancies to term...

Besides that, your argument might work / make sense for the churched crowd here; but most of America is unchurched and so in order to change their hearts & minds on the matter, you'll have to use different lines of reasoning.

Yes. It would include many gop voters.

Particularly when voting for “security” I.e. going to war and millions of innocent lives being killed over wmd’s that never existed.