Trump Convicted

[Bootstrap]

There are endless numbers of Republicans who did endless amounts of moralizing about Bill Clinton and how his affair with Monica Lewinski made him unfit to be president. Many of those same people have now hypocritically flip-flopped on the subject when it is Donald Trump under accusation. Their numbers no doubt includes many in the Menno world who are Trump supporters and I expect some here as well.

With Clinton, the papers were full of every detail of what happened with Lewinsky and the immorality of it all. Strangely, that part isn't what dominates these days. Not in the media, and not here.

[Josh]

There are endless numbers of Republicans who did endless amounts of moralizing about Bill Clinton and how his affair with Monica Lewinski made him unfit to be president. Many of those same people have now hypocritically flip-flopped on the subject when it is Donald Trump under accusation. Their numbers no doubt includes many in the Menno world who are Trump supporters and I expect some here as well.

With Clinton, the papers were full of every detail of what happened with Lewinsky and the immorality of it all. Strangely, that part isn't what dominates these days. Not in the media, and not here.

Maybe that's because Trump didn't have any affairs with a White House intern whilst President.

If you want details on Trump's many escapades, they were covered in the press in the (distant) past when they happened.

[Josh]

e each person has pointed out just how bad Trump's behavior was? How they feel about a president who proclaims his right to sexual abuse? Who sleeps with porn stars while married? Who works out a scheme where the National Enquirer buys exclusive rights to these stories, giving the impression they are going to publish them, then silences them instead? Who pays hush money to these porn stars in the middle of a presidential campaign, disguising the payments to hide their purpose?

I agree, most people have not actively said these things are OK. But a lot of people seem to jump on anyone who says they are not OK or immediately change the subject - just look at the response to those posts.

This is MennoNet, not the Daily Kos nor the Trump Denouncement Channel. Most of us here already strongly condemn political involvements, politicians, and in even stronger terms, adultery, fornication, and the many variants thereof.

Most of us don't care about the National Enquirer - I sure don't. I just think of it is an "alien sightings" magazine that used to be in the grocery store checkout aisle, although I can't recall seeing it in a while. I think most of us just don't care about the National Enquirer at all.

Most of us don't care about hush money either. Hush money isn't illegal, and it goes on all the time. In Anabaptist circles, we would consider such payments to be wrong. But they still aren't illegal.

[Bootstrap]

e each person has pointed out just how bad Trump's behavior was? How they feel about a president who proclaims his right to sexual abuse? Who sleeps with porn stars while married? Who works out a scheme where the National Enquirer buys exclusive rights to these stories, giving the impression they are going to publish them, then silences them instead? Who pays hush money to these porn stars in the middle of a presidential campaign, disguising the payments to hide their purpose?

I agree, most people have not actively said these things are OK. But a lot of people seem to jump on anyone who says they are not OK or immediately change the subject - just look at the response to those posts.

This is MennoNet, not the Daily Kos nor the Trump Denouncement Channel. Most of us here already strongly condemn political involvements, politicians, and in even stronger terms, adultery, fornication, and the many variants thereof.

Sometimes even when it's not even clear that it happened. Except when Trump is involved. Then it's different.

[Ken]

There are endless numbers of Republicans who did endless amounts of moralizing about Bill Clinton and how his affair with Monica Lewinski made him unfit to be president. Many of those same people have now hypocritically flip-flopped on the subject when it is Donald Trump under accusation. Their numbers no doubt includes many in the Menno world who are Trump supporters and I expect some here as well.

With Clinton, the papers were full of every detail of what happened with Lewinsky and the immorality of it all. Strangely, that part isn't what dominates these days. Not in the media, and not here.

Maybe that's because Trump didn't have any affairs with a White House intern whilst President.

If you want details on Trump's many escapades, they were covered in the press in the (distant) past when they happened.

Trump is not president.

He is running for president. And his actions in the past few years as well as his actions further in the past all have bearing on his character and fitness to be president.

It is truly amusing to watch how conservatives tie themselves into mortal pretzels in order to defend Trump who was objectively the most criminal and amoral president in American history. I have more respect for the business types like the Koch Brother's Americans for Prosperity group whose support for Trump is purely transactional. They support Trump because they want lower taxes on the ultra-wealthy and reduced regulation on corporations. But people who claim to be motivated by morality? For them, Trump is just a mirror that that reflects back who they really are.

[temporal1]

I saw no one here that was diminishing, excusing or whitewashing what Trump's did or his moral failings.

It seems like when posters aren't putting Trump down several time each day, they get accused of excusing him and being lesser Christians, than those who do consistently denigrate him.

Grace,
MN has its “resident” DeNiro Juniors.
Over years, no change in TDS: If you don’t HATE Trump, you’re in blind love with him.
(Maybe somewhat as joe idolizes hunter?) blind love.

Accusatiions don’t make it so. Doubling-tripling down with mean words doesn’t make it so.
i’m afraid this election cycle is bringing out the claws. Even on this forum.


- - - - - - -

Certainly, if DJT were a member of a church with practicing standards wrt sins, yes, he could be subject to excommunication.
Is this a question? Many with virulent/acute TDS do NOT belong to churches with such requirements.

Sometimes i wonder if there is conflation in thinking about (some) church standards versus elected political office?
Understandably, Christians would desire the highest moral standards in ALL leadership. pray for it!

God is interesting.
He often chooses the very imperfect to do His will. One after another.

Grace,
you, Robert, Josh, others, have been reliable in denouncing Trump’s sins+shortfalls. Even just personal dislike.
you’re right, it’s never enough. it’s as tho it doesn’t even register.
i’m not as regular in that way. Nevertheless, accusations exceed reality. imho

Trump doesn’t scare me or bother me. i don’t give him that power. i don’t “follow” him, contribute to campaigns, nothing.
He’s just a rough New Yorker, i’ve met a number, esp when living in Vermont. Wealthy, irritating New Yorkers, like Bernie Sanders, AOC, DeNiro, etc., LOVE Vermont. They’re like a plague to locals there. Or, they were, decades ago. Not sure, they may have taken over by now.

The rough style doesn’t mean they are stupid or worthless. It’s just a style they inherit/learn growing up.
Montrealers are another bunch. Not identical. They often reflect an annoying style. Some don’t like Midwesterners, or Southerners.

My mother was strongly, “live and let live.” i hope i inherited it.

[Grace]

Grace,
MN has its “resident” DeNiro Juniors.
Over years, no change in TDS: If you don’t HATE Trump, you’re in blind love with him.
(Maybe somewhat as joe idolizes hunter?) blind love.

So true. The double standard is very telling.

The two presidential candidates are not the best. One candidate will be sentenced and the other can barely string a sentence together.

[Josh]

Sometimes even when it's not even clear that it happened. Except when Trump is involved. Then it's different.

Boot, did I miss something? Are people on MennoNet excusing Trump's acts of adultery or divorce & remarriage? I haven't seen that at all.

As I said earlier, this isn't a Trump denouncement forum (and it's not an Obama denouncement forum, etc. either), despite however much some partisans think it should be. The stance of most of the posters on MN (particularly conservative Mennonite posters) has been clear. They don't think these things are acceptable at all.

[Josh]

It seems like when posters aren't putting Trump down several time each day, they get accused of excusing him and being lesser Christians, than those who do consistently denigrate him.

Grace,
MN has its “resident” DeNiro Juniors.
Over years, no change in TDS: If you don’t HATE Trump, you’re in blind love with him.
(Maybe somewhat as joe idolizes hunter?) blind love.

You hit the nail on the head; some people seem to want daily denouncements as some kind of proof that we're good Christians. It's beyond ridiculous. Particularly when the same people will, in a different breath, tell us how we should respect Biden as our country's leader due to what the Bible says, etc. (I would note that seemed oddly silent about that approach back when Trump was President).

It's naked partisanship, and it's right to call it out as such. One of the signs of a partisan is they will demand you pick sides, and then accuse you of being unfaithful to your country, not a good Christian, an immoral person yourself, etc. if you refuse to do so. This thread is exemplary of that.

[Szdfan]

Russell Moore makes some really good points about Trunp's evangelical supporters in Christianity Today --

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... moore.html

The former president’s defenders are too smart to believe what some of them imply—that Trump never really knew Stormy Daniels and that he was paying her six figures of hush money to keep her from talking about something that never happened. So what message does it send when—like every other political constituency—we find ways to minimize that by suggesting that the cultural and political stakes are too high to worry about such minor matters as keeping one’s vows or telling the truth?

That’s especially when a figure is held up to the rest of the country as a champion of restoring the country to Christian values—to when “girls were girls and men were men,” as the old sitcom characters Archie and Edith Bunker would sing it. And that’s especially true when Christian leaders hail Trump as a “baby Christian” and he licenses his name to Bibles. For many Americans, the word evangelical now is shorthand for “Trump supporter.” How can we blame them when, in so many arenas of American Christian life, people who deny the Trinity are embraced as Christians, but those who don’t support Trump are ostracized as apostates?

Many will talk about how God uses flawed and imperfect people; that’s true, of course. This is not, though, a Chuck Colson repenting of his sin, taking responsibility for it and pleading for God’s mercy. This is someone who instead now says that he will take revenge on his critics and enemies the moment he is back in office.

What does that say to those who are watching, learning from Trump’s “never admit, never apologize” strategy? It says policy is more important than character. Achievement is more important than integrity. The implication from religious leaders reputedly bearing witness to the God for whom they speak is this: A man is justified by winning alone.