Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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Bootstrap
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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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Josh wrote:You keep citing the 1994 AWB.

What impact did the AWB have on crime?

When it expired in 2004, what was the impact on crime?
I think you're asking the wrong question - most crime does not involve assault weapons, the assault weapons ban was designed to reduce mass shootings like the ones we are discussing now. It was introduced after a gunman armed with an assault rifle killed five children and injured 29 more in a schoolyard in Stockton, California. You would want a different kind of bill for reducing gun crime in general. We might well need both.

And it was pretty effective. Mass shootings and fatalities went down when it was in effect, and went up again when it expired. Caveats about small sample size apply, of course, but the data we have shows it working.

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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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Josh wrote: In Chicago, there are now more self defence shootings by concealed carriers than there are shootings by cops.
Is this true? What's your source for that? I tried to find reliable numbers on this but couldn't.
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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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Josh wrote:What we are seeing is a full scale breakdown of society, and gun laws aren’t going to change that.
I don't think we are seeing a full scale breakdown of society, certainly not if you measure by violent crime. But there is an emotional side to this debate that says just exactly that, telling us violence is going up rapidly when it is going down, telling people they must arm themselves to be safe when they are much safer now than they were decades ago.

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Even in Chicago, the facts do not match the emotional fear-driven rhetoric.

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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:What we are seeing is a full scale breakdown of society, and gun laws aren’t going to change that.
I don't think we are seeing a full scale breakdown of society, certainly not if you measure by violent crime. But there is an emotional side to this debate that says just exactly that, telling us violence is going up rapidly when it is going down, telling people they must arm themselves to be safe when they are much safer now than they were decades ago.
I completely agree. I also think that the emotional reactions which cause people to call for the banning of certain guns, or changing the age, or expanding background checks are not always a rational view of the scope of the problem. When you think of the sheer number of semi-automatic rifles that are out there in the US, and then the statistically miniscule number of owners that actually use them to commit a crime, you have to realize that a certain amount of the movement against these weapons reflects emotion, not reason.

Additionally, the outcry against the NRA seems somewhat based on emotion in light of the fact that no known NRA member has ever caused a mass shooting. That isn't to say that the NRA has not played a role in the freedom to buy a wide range of weapons, including those used to commit crimes.

And I will repeat that I have no reason to care whether gun regulations tighten up. If all semi-automatics are made illegal, I would turn in my semi-automatic rifle (.22 for varmints). But there is literally no way the government will go out and collect all semi-automatic weapons from the US population. There is so much hysteria and emotion. There will probably be a tightening of some regulations and an expansion of background checks. But I strongly doubt that there will ever be a mass collection of semi-automatic or even assault-style guns in this country, and as long as there are guns out there, these crimes will continue. I know this sounds pessimistic but it's the reality in my opinion.

Emotion only lasts so long and then reality sets in.
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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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mike wrote: .. I completely agree. I also think that the emotional reactions which cause people to call for the banning of certain guns, or changing the age, or expanding background checks are not always a rational view of the scope of the problem.

:arrow: When you think of the sheer number of semi-automatic rifles that are out there in the US, and then the statistically miniscule number of owners that actually use them to commit a crime, you have to realize that a certain amount of the movement against these weapons reflects emotion, not reason.

:arrow: Additionally, the outcry against the NRA seems somewhat based on emotion in light of the fact that no known NRA member has ever caused a mass shooting. That isn't to say that the NRA has not played a role in the freedom to buy a wide range of weapons, including those used to commit crimes.

And I will repeat that I have no reason to care whether gun regulations tighten up.
If all semi-automatics are made illegal, I would turn in my semi-automatic rifle (.22 for varmints).
:arrow: But there is literally no way the government will go out and collect all semi-automatic weapons from the US population.

There is so much hysteria and emotion.
There will probably be a tightening of some regulations and an expansion of background checks.
But I strongly doubt that there will ever be a mass collection of semi-automatic or even assault-style guns in this country, and as long as there are guns out there, these crimes will continue.

I know this sounds pessimistic but it's the reality in my opinion.

Emotion only lasts so long and then reality sets in.
you articulate my thoughts very nicely. :)
i imagine your thoughts represent the majority (not represented in the media circus.)

i would add one troubling observation.
this whole response to the Parkland FL murders reminds me so much of the politicized hysteria following the Dylann Roof murders. politically, moves were made that had nothing to do with him or his actions, or even the victims or survivors. i.e., politicians exploiting tragedy for knee-jerk decisions that might be hard to “sell,” outside of hysterical moments.

“we-the-people” really need to wise up and not allow this repulsive manipulation.
i see no better model for it than the Amish folks at Nickel Mines.

ever since Nickel Mines i have prayed for this wisdom to catch on.

there have been some “close” incidents, but, they failed to follow through.
the media and politicians take the lead, drag everyone down along with them.

:arrow: how to change this mentality that being on camera is the most important thing in life?
now, they’re going after newly traumatized children - the results are seriously awful.
parents: do not allow this. step in front of your children.

i’m NOT suggesting a law to prevent it!! No! :shock:
instead, how to empower individuals, families, neighbors, churches, schools, that they can refuse to be exploited?

if folks don’t wake up to this, we can only expect more+worse to follow.
laws should not be crafted in moments of high emotions.


yet, it appears, activists are just waiting for the next tragedy to shove their agenda forward.
it’s become an organized “thing.”

earlier this week, i read, Illinois reps were voting on 5 new bills regarding guns. :shock:
the next day, i read, 6 passed! .. in my state, no surprise. laws on top of useless, unenforcible, unfundable laws.

as long as these guys are paid to sit in their cubicles crafting law, law is what we’re gonna get.
we need to change what we pay them to do. we’re CHOKING on massive quantities of law. clearly, they are not about to self-correct.

(coincidentally, i just read Mr Roof was raped+beaten in prison, requiring 13 stitches in his rectum.
what a grisly world this can be.)
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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mike wrote:Additionally, the outcry against the NRA seems somewhat based on emotion in light of the fact that no known NRA member has ever caused a mass shooting. That isn't to say that the NRA has not played a role in the freedom to buy a wide range of weapons, including those used to commit crimes.
From what I've seen the primary argument against the NRA isn't that it's members are involved in mass shootings, but rather that this powerful lobby with a highly energized membership is against any kind of gun control and restrictions - i.e. their impact on public policy. For example, I'm concerned about the NRA's attempt to legislatively undermine state and local concealed carry laws.

Nick Cruz purchased his weapon and ammunition legally. Is there a good reason that a 19 year-old - who can't legally buy beer - should be able to legally purchase an AR-15?
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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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Szdfan wrote:
mike wrote:Additionally, the outcry against the NRA seems somewhat based on emotion in light of the fact that no known NRA member has ever caused a mass shooting. That isn't to say that the NRA has not played a role in the freedom to buy a wide range of weapons, including those used to commit crimes.
From what I've seen the primary argument against the NRA isn't that it's members are involved in mass shootings, but rather that this powerful lobby with a highly energized membership is against any kind of gun control and restrictions - i.e. their impact on public policy. For example, I'm concerned about the NRA's attempt to legislatively undermine state and local concealed carry laws.
The NRA is a very different organization now than it was before 1977. You rarely saw the word "tactical" in NRA publications before then, now it's all over them.
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The NC House passed a bill that would allow concealed carry without a license, a bill pushed by the NRA. Some of the policies they promote are opposed by most gun owners, most Republicans, and even most NRA members.
Szdfan wrote:Nick Cruz purchased his weapon and ammunition legally. Is there a good reason that a 19 year-old - who can't legally buy beer - should be able to legally purchase an AR-15?
He would not have been able to buy a handgun. Why? Because back when they passed the handgun regulations, it was the older, saner NRA, which thought handguns require showing greater responsibility.
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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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Szdfan wrote: Is there a good reason that a 19 year-old - who can't legally buy beer - should be able to legally purchase an AR-15?
Is the age really the problem in your mind, or is the rifle the problem?
17 is old enough to join the military and be trained to handle a rifle. Age can be a tool, but the reality is that some people are safe to handle or buy a rifle at 15 and some like the Las Vegas shooter shouldn’t buy any at any age.
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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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RZehr wrote:
Szdfan wrote:Is there a good reason that a 19 year-old - who can't legally buy beer - should be able to legally purchase an AR-15?
Is the age really the problem in your mind, or is the rifle the problem?
17 is old enough to join the military and be trained to handle a rifle. Age can be a tool, but the reality is that some people are safe to handle or buy a rifle at 15 and some like the Las Vegas shooter shouldn’t buy any at any age.
Is there a reason that a man who cannot legally buy a handgun should be able to buy the weapon preferred for mass shootings? Can we usefully distinguish weapons that the military needs from weapons civilians need? The AR-15 seems to live in a grey area in between, how do we think about it?

If civilians have access to AR-15s and high capacity magazines, how do you seriously propose to keep them out of the hands of people like Nikolas Cruz? So far, I haven't heard a good answer to that question.
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Re: Trump supports efforts to improve gun background checks

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Can you define what’s wrong with an AR-15?

The AR-15 isn’t a hunting weapon either. It’s specifically a defensive weapon. Many Americans feel they should be allowed to own defensive weapons.

More concerningly, in places where AR-15s are absolutely illegal, like California, mass shootings still happen. Focusing on a particular item misses the bigger picture. We need to address what happens to a person that they decide to do a mass shooting, or stabbing, or bombing, or driving a car or truck into a crowd of people.

Europe has comprehensive gun control, and now terror attacks take the form of the latter above. I don’t see how it’s useful to disarm law abiding citizens who will now have to face these kind of terror attacks unarmed.
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