Amish and Welfare

[ken_sylvania]

Are there Amish who are so poor that they need WIC to survive? I would have expected that a rural community with plenty of space for gardens wouldn't be in need of food assistance.

Well, akshully...

Much of rural America is actually considered to be "food deserts." You can crisscross the Great Plains and most small towns no longer even have a grocery store. At best they might have a Dollar General with little in the way fresh food. You might have to drive 20-30 miles to find the nearest Wal-Mart in a larger town. As for the crops grown locally, it's mostly just wheat, soybeans, and corn produced at an industrial scale. I suppose one can grind corn by hand and make tortillas. Or mill your own flour. But that will get old pretty fast and isn't a very balanced diet.

Except that presumably the Amish are an exception to the normal industrial scale agriculture in the great plains, are they not?

It is one thing to try to homestead solo in some isolated rural part of the Great Plains. That would be difficult and pretty unsustainable because you don't have community support, local markets close by, etc. It's another thing entirely to be part of what is supposed to be a sustainable self-sufficient Amish community in Ohio which is what Josh is talking about.

Is an Amish lifestyle SUSTAINABLE or UNSUSTAINABLE in rural Ohio?

I don't begrudge Amish taking advantage of WIC and other such programs. They pay taxes like anyone else. I'm just kind of surprised that the Amish community in rural Ohio needs food assistance. WIC is usually single mothers. Where are the Amish men?

Presumably the Great Plains have even more space for gardens than do communities in Ohio. I was responding to your statement that you didn't think a rural community with plenty of space for gardens would need food assistance. You hadn't said anything about the situation being peculiar to the Amish.

[Josh]

Ken is raising a stink of "how dare the Amish be on WIC", when what I original said was that they aren't on WIC, but social workers in areas with Amish are busy trying to come up with ways to convince them to enrol on WIC.

Then Ken complained "where are the Amish dads?" as if Amish families somehow have an epidemic of fathers not providing for their children (they don't). Then he asserts that WIC is basically only for single mothers and that "most" people on it are single mothers. In reality, it's basically half and half between married women and not-married women.

Finally, Ken somehow raises another stink that "Is the Amish lifestyle SUSTAINABLE or UNSUSTAINABLE?", as if the fact anyone is eligible for WIC proves their lifestyle is somehow unsustainable or something. This is against the backdrop that social workers can't convince Amish families who are eligible to enrol on WIC. Let's review a quote from him:

I don't begrudge Amish taking advantage of WIC and other such programs. They pay taxes like anyone else. I'm just kind of surprised that the Amish community in rural Ohio needs food assistance. WIC is usually single mothers. Where are the Amish men?

All false claims.

#1, it's very hard to get the Amish to accept free help like WIC, SNAP, or free car seats. Social workers have to entice them by convincing them it's a discount or a coupon and even letting them "pay" for it.

#2, "I'm surprised the Amish community needs food assistance". They don't as a group, but Amish people always love a good deal. The Swartzentrubers have plenty of food, but they still like to raid dumpsters to look for any good food being thrown away.

#3, "WIC is usually single mothers." Already discussed. This is an unreasonable statement when about half of WIC mothers are married.

#4, "Where are the Amish men?" If a family makes an income eligible for WIC or otherwise is eligible, this doesn't mean the father is somehow absent or not providing. The government has simply decided they want to make sure all mothers, infants, and children are getting PLENTY of nutrition, regardless of if dad is not making very much money or not.

[Ken]

What does that fact have to do with the Amish? Most Americans aren’t Amish.

And in any case you’re still wrong. From the US Census:

About half of WIC mothers are currently married ....
This translates into 1.3 million of the Nation’s 2.4 million WIC mothers. Most (1.1 million) of these 1.3 million women had their husband present in the household; the other 244,000 were either separated or had absent hus- bands. Married WIC mothers had an average of 2.4 children each

1.3/2.4 is not what most of us think of as “most”.

The Census report you are citing is 30 years old: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Cens ... b95-29.pdf

In any event, the relevant number is 1.1 million who had their husband present in the household. If you are legally married but your husband has vanished then you are effectively a single mother. So 2.4 - 1.1 = 1.3 million WIC recipients are single mothers and 1.3/2.4 = 54% of WIC recipients are single mothers.

In any event, the majority of people who are eligible for WIC don't actually participate in the program. Not everyone who qualifies for welfare actually takes it (yes, WIC is welfare). And the majority of WIC recipients are single women. That was the case back in 1993 from where your data is from and I believe it is still the case today 30 years later.

That still doesn't answer the question as to why Amish and other plain Mennos need to be on welfare, especially if they have men in the family working.

[Ken]

Ken is raising a stink of "how dare the Amish be on WIC", when what I original said was that they aren't on WIC, but social workers in areas with Amish are busy trying to come up with ways to convince them to enrol on WIC.

Then Ken complained "where are the Amish dads?" as if Amish families somehow have an epidemic of fathers not providing for their children (they don't). Then he asserts that WIC is basically only for single mothers and that "most" people on it are single mothers. In reality, it's basically half and half between married women and not-married women.

Finally, Ken somehow raises another stink that "Is the Amish lifestyle SUSTAINABLE or UNSUSTAINABLE?", as if the fact anyone is eligible for WIC proves their lifestyle is somehow unsustainable or something. This is against the backdrop that social workers can't convince Amish families who are eligible to enrol on WIC. Let's review a quote from him:

I don't begrudge Amish taking advantage of WIC and other such programs. They pay taxes like anyone else. I'm just kind of surprised that the Amish community in rural Ohio needs food assistance. WIC is usually single mothers. Where are the Amish men?

All false claims.

#1, it's very hard to get the Amish to accept free help like WIC, SNAP, or free car seats. Social workers have to entice them by convincing them it's a discount or a coupon and even letting them "pay" for it.

#2, "I'm surprised the Amish community needs food assistance". They don't as a group, but Amish people always love a good deal. The Swartzentrubers have plenty of food, but they still like to raid dumpsters to look for any good food being thrown away.

#3, "WIC is usually single mothers." Already discussed. This is an unreasonable statement when about half of WIC mothers are married.

#4, "Where are the Amish men?" If a family makes an income eligible for WIC or otherwise is eligible, this doesn't mean the father is somehow absent or not providing. The government has simply decided they want to make sure all mothers, infants, and children are getting PLENTY of nutrition, regardless of if dad is not making very much money or not.

WIC is welfare.

And adults have agency. Don't blame social workers for promoting programs that they are paid to promote. If Amish people are signing up for welfare benefits that they don't need, it isn't because they "love a good deal". It is because they are being greedy.

In any event, I find it curious that you excuse this sort of behavior while arguing against government subsidized school lunches which you have done here multiple times. It is essentially the same program run by the USDA. Shall we roll back the tape and see what you have written here about school lunches?

[Josh]

That still doesn't answer the question as to why Amish and other plain Mennos need to be on welfare, especially if they have men in the family working.

Ask the social workers who are trying to convince them to sign up. (I did, and the answer was that they want every eligible household to be getting all of the assistance they are eligible for and they are given targets to meet with a goal of improving childhood nutrition which has lots of other positive effects for socitey.) In the case of the Amish they wanted to make sure all Amish households had access to infant formula if they aren't breastfeeding.

why Amish and other plain Mennos need to be on welfare, especially if they have men in the family working.

If the men in the family don't earn enough to be above the poverty line or other income based guidelines, then why shouldn't they avail themselves of government benefits like ACP, SNAP, HEAP, WIC, and so on so forth?

As I tell people, I've paid in plenty of taxes so you should feel at liberty to receive benefits now because that's what I paid all those taxes for.

[Ken]

That still doesn't answer the question as to why Amish and other plain Mennos need to be on welfare, especially if they have men in the family working.

Ask the social workers who are trying to convince them to sign up. (I did, and the answer was that they want every eligible household to be getting all of the assistance they are eligible for and they are given targets to meet with a goal of improving childhood nutrition which has lots of other positive effects for socitey.) In the case of the Amish they wanted to make sure all Amish households had access to infant formula if they aren't breastfeeding.

why Amish and other plain Mennos need to be on welfare, especially if they have men in the family working.

If the men in the family don't earn enough to be above the poverty line or other income based guidelines, then why shouldn't they avail themselves of government benefits like ACP, SNAP, HEAP, WIC, and so on so forth?

As I tell people, I've paid in plenty of taxes so you should feel at liberty to receive benefits now because that's what I paid all those taxes for.

Those are all just forms of welfare.

If you need it then fine, that's what those programs are for. Because in this county we don't want to see children going hungry. But if you don't need them? There have been times when my wife and my combined income was probably low enough to qualify us for some of those programs too. But it never would have occurred to us to go through the hassle of applying for welfare that we didn't need. Because we always figured out ways to make do. And, in fact, most Americans feel the same way and don't actually apply for every welfare program simply because they might qualify.

[Josh]

Those are all just forms of welfare.

If you need it then fine, that's what those programs are for. Because in this county we don't want to see children going hungry. But if you don't need them? There have been times when my wife and my combined income was probably low enough to qualify us for some of those programs too. But it never would have occurred to us to go through the hassle of applying for welfare that we didn't need. Because we always figured out ways to make do. And, in fact, most Americans feel the same way and don't actually apply for every welfare program simply because they might qualify.

And this keeps directors of social worker agencies up at night, since their funding and bonuses are tied to how many eligible families they can get to sign up.

[Ken]

Those are all just forms of welfare.

If you need it then fine, that's what those programs are for. Because in this county we don't want to see children going hungry. But if you don't need them? There have been times when my wife and my combined income was probably low enough to qualify us for some of those programs too. But it never would have occurred to us to go through the hassle of applying for welfare that we didn't need. Because we always figured out ways to make do. And, in fact, most Americans feel the same way and don't actually apply for every welfare program simply because they might qualify.

And this keeps directors of social worker agencies up at night, since their funding and bonuses are tied to how many eligible families they can get to sign up.

Well, it doesn't keep me up at night and shouldn't keep you up at night either.

I'm generally supportive of social welfare programs for those who need them. Because we aren't a sadistic society. But if fully employed working class families need to rely on welfare to survive then we have bigger economic problems that requires bigger fixes. Namely raising incomes to livable wages and reducing the costs of essentials like housing. And social workers promoting WIC isn't going to address any of that. It is barely a band-aid and nothing more.

[ohio jones]

More than a tithe of this thread has been off-topic argumentation, and I am offering to split that out if the OP wants.

[Ken]

More than a tithe of this thread has been off-topic argumentation, and I am offering to split that out if the OP wants.

I'm done....

Although it's not totally off-topic if social welfare programs replace the necessity of tithing. In which case your taxes become your tithe, or at least part of it.