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seeking-artist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 2:13 pm

Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 11:56 am

seeking-artist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 11:44 amRegardless, is there actually a principled objection to having more performing artists within an Anabaptist community? To me that's the most important question. If the answer is no, then we can move on to figuring out how to make it work.

For Plain Anabaptists, the principled objection is that performance art generally fosters pride and a love for the world.

Many Non-Plain Anabaptists believe the opposite is true and they have been "figuring out how to make it work in their communities" since about 1850.

The argument against "pride and a love for the world" is the go-to for basically anything Plain Anabaptists don't like, though. What actually warrants performing arts being put in this category? If playing an instrument in public is a demonstration of pride, how come running a large business isn't seem the same way? Etc.

I thought this was worthy of its own thread. I will let others chime in first before sharing my thoughts.

Probably no surprise but I agree with Seeking-Artist. Big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles don't seem to be problematic, in fact, they are often seen as evidence of God's blessing. And indeed perhaps they are. From my point of view, so is art. Conrad Fisher's music, blues scales, folk music, the afore mentioned tin pan alley, jazz, bluegrass, southern, southern gospel, Baroque, opera, musical theater...everyone from Oasis, Gershwin to Billy Strings to Bono, to R Stanley, to Steve Green, to Phil Keaggy to Forest Frank, to Pavarotti, to Johnny Cash, to Bob Marley, to the Edwin Hawkins singers, to Lyrica Sacra, to Lauren Daigle, to Harmonia Sacra, to congregational singing, to singing in old people's homes (and all the ones in between) have been "God's blessing" for me on occasion.

The more art the more I am able to live a full and enriched life.

*ducks and runs for cover*

Probably no surprise but I agree with Seeking-Artist. Big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles don't seem to be problematic, in fact, they are often seen as evidence of God's blessing. And indeed perhaps they are.

Instead of discussing music, perhaps we cold discuss if big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles, big vacations, big meals out, big second homes, etc. bring honour to God and should be part of a victorious Christian's life, or if they might indeed lead one into temptations of pride or other sins we find in the world.

JohnH wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:37 pm

Probably no surprise but I agree with Seeking-Artist. Big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles don't seem to be problematic, in fact, they are often seen as evidence of God's blessing. And indeed perhaps they are.

Instead of discussing music, perhaps we cold discuss if big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles, big vacations, big meals out, big second homes, etc. bring honour to God and should be part of a victorious Christian's life, or if they might indeed lead one into temptations of pride or other sins we find in the world.

Big expensive churches

mike wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:53 pm Big expensive churches

Big, expensive, plain churches and big, expensive, and plain schools.

By "expensive" I mean "will it be 7 figures or 8?"

mike wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:53 pm

JohnH wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:37 pm

Probably no surprise but I agree with Seeking-Artist. Big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles don't seem to be problematic, in fact, they are often seen as evidence of God's blessing. And indeed perhaps they are.

Instead of discussing music, perhaps we cold discuss if big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles, big vacations, big meals out, big second homes, etc. bring honour to God and should be part of a victorious Christian's life, or if they might indeed lead one into temptations of pride or other sins we find in the world.

Big expensive churches

Schools

JohnH wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:37 pm

Probably no surprise but I agree with Seeking-Artist. Big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles don't seem to be problematic, in fact, they are often seen as evidence of God's blessing. And indeed perhaps they are.

Instead of discussing music, perhaps we cold discuss if big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles, big vacations, big meals out, big second homes, etc. bring honour to God and should be part of a victorious Christian's life, or if they might indeed lead one into temptations of pride or other sins we find in the world.

No actually, I think it would be interesting to discuss music specifically and why there are aversions to pursuing it for purported reasons of avoiding pride and promoting simplicity. Obviously there's a lot to be said about materialism itself, but even in the most conservative contexts, spending large amounts of money can escape under the radar even as the arts are discouraged. I've never followed the logic.

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 5:01 pm

mike wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:53 pm

JohnH wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:37 pm

Instead of discussing music, perhaps we cold discuss if big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles, big vacations, big meals out, big second homes, etc. bring honour to God and should be part of a victorious Christian's life, or if they might indeed lead one into temptations of pride or other sins we find in the world.

Big expensive churches

Schools

So I hear.

seeking-artist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 5:26 pm

JohnH wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:37 pm

Probably no surprise but I agree with Seeking-Artist. Big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles don't seem to be problematic, in fact, they are often seen as evidence of God's blessing. And indeed perhaps they are.

Instead of discussing music, perhaps we cold discuss if big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles, big vacations, big meals out, big second homes, etc. bring honour to God and should be part of a victorious Christian's life, or if they might indeed lead one into temptations of pride or other sins we find in the world.

No actually, I think it would be interesting to discuss music specifically and why there are aversions to pursuing it for purported reasons of avoiding pride and promoting simplicity.

Except that the fact that plain Anabaptists are struggling in the area of big business, big houses, etc. has been repeatedly proposed as an excuse for why it's OK to start slipping in other areas. We already have two threads vigorously discussing music specifically, but I guess if you really want to, we can have a third.

Obviously there's a lot to be said about materialism itself, but even in the most conservative contexts, spending large amounts of money can escape under the radar even as the arts are discouraged. I've never followed the logic.

I don't think this is actually the case. In some Old Order groups, like Hoovers or Swartzentrubers, spending large amounts of money simply isn't allowed.

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2026 3:09 pm Probably no surprise but I agree with Seeking-Artist. Big business, big houses, big cabins, big vehicles don't seem to be problematic, in fact, they are often seen as evidence of God's blessing. And indeed perhaps they are. From my point of view, so is art. Conrad Fisher's music, blues scales, folk music, the afore mentioned tin pan alley, jazz, bluegrass, southern, southern gospel, Baroque, opera, musical theater...everyone from Oasis, Gershwin to Billy Strings to Bono, to R Stanley, to Steve Green, to Phil Keaggy to Forest Frank, to Pavarotti, to Johnny Cash, to Bob Marley, to the Edwin Hawkins singers, to Lyrica Sacra, to Lauren Daigle, to Harmonia Sacra, to congregational singing, to singing in old people's homes (and all the ones in between) have been "God's blessing" for me on occasion.

The more art the more I am able to live a full and enriched life.

I don't doubt your perception but I for one don't believe that the end justifies the means.