Who can be a believer?

[JohnH]

In the meantime...

Hegseth: God deserves all the glory. Tens of thousands of strikes carried out under the protection of divine providence. A massive effort with miraculous protection. God is good.

Glad to see Christ and God are at the center of it all. In my view this is probably the worst form of idolatry. And yet, it finds itching ears across Christendom in America...The God is literally the God of War, Mars I believe is his name.

This would be the viewpoint, though, of basically every denomination outside of plain Anabaptism, ranging from Orthodox to Catholics to evangelicals to Mormons. (Of course, the "hand of God" is only considered present as far as their own side goes; the other guys are obviously the bad guys.) The Anabaptist world outside of plain Anabaptism tends to suffer this too. Back when I attended an MC USA church, we prayed a prayer and a blessing for a young lady going off to boot camp.

A good question for you, then, is if you consider people outside of plain Anabaptism to be Christian or not, or you consider them to be engaging in some kind of idolatry.

[joshuabgood]

In the meantime...

Hegseth: God deserves all the glory. Tens of thousands of strikes carried out under the protection of divine providence. A massive effort with miraculous protection. God is good.

Glad to see Christ and God are at the center of it all. In my view this is probably the worst form of idolatry. And yet, it finds itching ears across Christendom in America...The God is literally the God of War, Mars I believe is his name.

This would be the viewpoint, though, of basically every denomination outside of plain Anabaptism, ranging from Orthodox to Catholics to evangelicals to Mormons. (Of course, the "hand of God" is only considered present as far as their own side goes; the other guys are obviously the bad guys.) The Anabaptist world outside of plain Anabaptism tends to suffer this too. Back when I attended an MC USA church, we prayed a prayer and a blessing for a young lady going off to boot camp.

A good question for you, then, is if you consider people outside of plain Anabaptism to be Christian or not, or you consider them to be engaging in some kind of idolatry.

It's a fair question. My quick sort of response is, yes, however, that is not the only idolatry in the larger Christendom. But it is significant enough for me that I could never feel at home in a denomination that takes that stance. There are things that I find appealing about various denominations, the intellectual rigor of the Reformed crowd, the high church traditions of the Catholic and EO, the fire of the Pentecostals, etc...but in the end I can't get past the question you note with regard to "joining" such a fellowship for regular community.

[JohnH]

It's a fair question. My quick sort of response is, yes, however, that is not the only idolatry in the larger Christendom. But it is significant enough for me that I could never feel at home in a denomination that takes that stance. There are things that I find appealing about various denominations, the intellectual rigor of the Reformed crowd, the high church traditions of the Catholic and EO, the fire of the Pentecostals, etc...but in the end I can't get past the question you note with regard to "joining" such a fellowship for regular community.

I suppose it wouldn't be the denominational stance so much as the stance of the individuals (unless the denomination has a rigid enough discipline that I can be assured all of the members of it are kept in line). No offence intended to your denomination, but it is one that I would say does not hold a strict anti-war/anti-force stance, and is more left up to individual conscience.

(I had some very awkward conversations where I assumed the person I was talking to would have the same stance I have.)

[Ernie]

A good question for you, then, is if you consider people outside of plain Anabaptism to be Christian or not, or you consider them to be engaging in some kind of idolatry.

It's a fair question. My quick sort of response is, yes, however, that is not the only idolatry in the larger Christendom. But it is significant enough for me that I could never feel at home in a denomination that takes that stance. There are things that I find appealing about various denominations, the intellectual rigor of the Reformed crowd, the high church traditions of the Catholic and EO, the fire of the Pentecostals, etc...but in the end I can't get past the question you note with regard to "joining" such a fellowship for regular community.

Yes, I consider glorifying war idolatry also. But there are also many things that are idolatry for Plain Anabaptists as well. Some churches and denominations struggle with certain forms of idolatry more than others.
So there are Plain Anabaptist churches and denominations where I could never feel at home either.

[JohnH]

Yes, I consider glorifying war idolatry also. But there are also many things that are idolatry for Plain Anabaptists as well. Some churches and denominations struggle with certain forms of idolatry more than others.
So there are Plain Anabaptist churches and denominations where I could never feel at home either.

I really hesitate to take the position, "Sorry, only plain Anabaptists are actually Christians." However, without taking that position, one does have to accept that quite a few people are Christians who are simultaneously military commanders, high-ranking politicians, absurdly wealthy businessmen, and so forth.

[joshuabgood]

Yes, I consider glorifying war idolatry also. But there are also many things that are idolatry for Plain Anabaptists as well. Some churches and denominations struggle with certain forms of idolatry more than others.
So there are Plain Anabaptist churches and denominations where I could never feel at home either.

I really hesitate to take the position, "Sorry, only plain Anabaptists are actually Christians." However, without taking that position, one does have to accept that quite a few people are Christians who are simultaneously military commanders, high-ranking politicians, absurdly wealthy businessmen, and so forth.

I do accept that basically...though the term Christian I prefer to define as "like Christ." So there are degrees to which people are Christian...

[Ernie]

Yes, I consider glorifying war idolatry also. But there are also many things that are idolatry for Plain Anabaptists as well. Some churches and denominations struggle with certain forms of idolatry more than others.
So there are Plain Anabaptist churches and denominations where I could never feel at home either.

I really hesitate to take the position, "Sorry, only plain Anabaptists are actually Christians."

I have not yet met or heard of anyone who takes that position and I have met a lot of Anabaptists.

However, without taking that position, one does have to accept that quite a few people are Christians who are simultaneously military commanders, high-ranking politicians, absurdly wealthy businessmen, and so forth.

I don't think it is an either/or situation in which one needs to take one position or the other.

I think we Plain Anabaptists can all look at some devout non-Anabaptists, and see ways they are following Jesus better than what we are.
There are ways that some Anabaptists are following Jesus better than some other Anabaptists.
And there are ways that some Anabaptists are following Jesus better than some non-Anabaptists.

We don't have to decide who is Christian and who is not. We can look at actions, and thoughts, and behaviors and compare them with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and talk about those things without making judgments about whether they are a Christian and how Christian they are.

[JohnH]

Yes, I consider glorifying war idolatry also. But there are also many things that are idolatry for Plain Anabaptists as well. Some churches and denominations struggle with certain forms of idolatry more than others.
So there are Plain Anabaptist churches and denominations where I could never feel at home either.

I really hesitate to take the position, "Sorry, only plain Anabaptists are actually Christians."

I have not yet met or heard of anyone who takes that position and I have met a lot of Anabaptists.

However, without taking that position, one does have to accept that quite a few people are Christians who are simultaneously military commanders, high-ranking politicians, absurdly wealthy businessmen, and so forth.

I don't think it is an either/or situation in which one needs to take one position or the other.

I think we Plain Anabaptists can all look at some devout non-Anabaptists, and see ways they are following Jesus better than what we are.
There are ways that some Anabaptists are following Jesus better than some other Anabaptists.
And there are ways that some Anabaptists are following Jesus better than some non-Anabaptists.

We don't have to decide who is Christian and who is not. We can look at actions, and thoughts, and behaviors and compare them with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and talk about those things without making judgments about whether they are a Christian and how Christian they are.

Perhaps I could extend that to say I hesitate to say that only practitioners of nonresistance can be Christian believers.

[Soloist]

I don’t judge others but it’s pretty clear what Jesus says.

Is killing good fruit? Or bad fruit?

[JohnH]

I don’t judge others but it’s pretty clear what Jesus says.

Is killing good fruit? Or bad fruit?

Well, Jesus said a lot of other things (particularly about wealth) that we don't make binding to decide if someone is a sincere Christian believer.