Anabaptism and Revivalism

[Julian]

Hello all, I am new to the forum so I would love to be directed to where this has been discussed.

What I am curious about is this: For those who are members of traditional groups, what experiences do you have with revivalist/evangelical movements coming through your communities? How have you navigated or resisted these movements? How would you describe the difference between traditional Anabaptism and the revivalist versions?

A bit of my own experience. I am S1 Hutterite, which is basically the least conservative of the Hutterite groups (I did a undergrad at university). In recent years, there has been a lot of movement within our communities towards evangelicalism or revivalism. You see this in the language people use ("born again" etc.), the emphasis (personal conversion, more mission), the books/authors they cite and read, and their critiques of the Hutterite tradition.

My thoughts on this are complicated. On the one hand, I think the critiques of the established tradition can be sound. The tradition can be too rigid and disconnected in a living way from its sources. Further, obviously what evangelicalism brings with it is not all bad: It can create people that are engaged, spiritually alive, take scripture seriously, etc.

However, my worries about revivalism/evangelicalism is that even though the people who are involved in it are often morally upstanding, it does tend to create a sharp and unhelpful distinction between "justification" on the one hand, and human works, traditions, etc. on the other. In my view, this leads to a individualistic view of salvation that simply cannot sustain the community life and community of goods that Hutterites practice. There are other problems, it can bring fundamentalism with it, as well as a fixation on USA culture wars.

I'm very curious if people have found a good way to navigate this. When I look at the General Conference Mennonites and the Mennonite Brethren Mennonites I see two options: On the one hand a basically progressive Christianity that equates Anabaptism with working for Social Justice; On the other hand, a basically evangelical Christianity that has left behind most Anabaptist distinctives and tradition. Is there a "third way" beyond these options that has actually worked in practice? In my mind, this would look like a revitalization of the tradition that also doesn't turn fully reactionary against modernity and is willing to draw on the deeper Christian tradition. I think of something like what the people at Mere Orthodoxy are doing from a Protestant/Reformed perspective. One option that seems to be out there is the "Followers of the Way" route. I have not found that super attractive personally. I would be happy to be recommended resources in the form of books, articles, podcasts, etc. that people have found helpful.

Anyway, I would love to hear from people's experience. Please don't feel the need to agree with me, I'd be happy to learn from people across the spectrum.

[Ernie]

Welcome Julian! A very worthwhile topic. I would love to chime in but due to other obligations, it may be awhile. Blessings on the journey!

[JohnH]

What I am curious about is this: For those who are members of traditional groups, what experiences do you have with revivalist/evangelical movements coming through your communities? How have you navigated or resisted these movements? How would you describe the difference between traditional Anabaptism and the revivalist versions?

The closest my own group has had to this in recent times was "outreach" from a Foursquare Pentecostal group that considered us their mission field (despite us already holding to evangelical views of revival, salvation, and so forth). Overall, the experience was not positive. In general, our group maintains a hard stance against outside groups attempting to "evangelise" our members, and likewise takes a hard stance against new / novel views on salvation, works, and so forth.

A bit of my own experience. I am S1 Hutterite, which is basically the least conservative of the Hutterite groups (I did a undergrad at university). In recent years, there has been a lot of movement within our communities towards evangelicalism or revivalism. You see this in the language people use ("born again" etc.), the emphasis (personal conversion, more mission), the books/authors they cite and read, and their critiques of the Hutterite tradition.

Very interesting. I used to have some good times with the people in Altona and Tasmania. However, I was observing in the case of Altona & related communities that evangelicalism/revivalism was tearing the groups apart. One consequence was families would move out to just live on their "own" - no longer attending church and believing they are Christians just fine being independent (maybe with 2 or 3 families living close by to operate a farm or business).

My thoughts on this are complicated. On the one hand, I think the critiques of the established tradition can be sound. The tradition can be too rigid and disconnected in a living way from its sources. Further, obviously what evangelicalism brings with it is not all bad: It can create people that are engaged, spiritually alive, take scripture seriously, etc.

I have a somewhat cynical view on evangelicalism since my parents ran in those circles so I grew up around it, but did not observe people who were engaged, spiritually alive, or taking scripture seriously, and nearly all of my contacts from back then have departed Christian faith altogether. The handful who have not are now in stricter more conservative type of churches, although not Anabaptist.

Is there a "third way" beyond these options that has actually worked in practice? In my mind, this would look like a revitalization of the tradition that also doesn't turn fully reactionary against modernity and is willing to draw on the deeper Christian tradition. I think of something like what the people at Mere Orthodoxy are doing from a Protestant/Reformed perspective.

So far, the only movements that have sustained their population long-term are the Old Orders. Most of the less-conservative Anabaptist groups have relied on sourcing members from Old Orders circles (including Hutterite circles) to refresh their ranks as their members continue to leave for even less conservative churches. This is sometimes called "transitional Anabaptism" or a "transitional church".

An open question is if Christianity can be integrated and practiced under modernity at all. My personal view is that it cannot. My own denomination has a mix of Old Order views and modernity and the modernity side of things seems to be the least sustainable, and also subject to the most change.

One option that seems to be out there is the "Followers of the Way" route. I have not found that super attractive personally. I would be happy to be recommended resources in the form of books, articles, podcasts, etc. that people have found helpful.

Followers of the Way has a unique set of doctrines but also has had some severe problems with practice and spiritual abuse that have led to them basically being a pariah in the rest of the Anabaptist world. It is my hope they overcome these things, but generally speaking, they view the rest of us Anabaptists as unsaved as a mission field. To quote a conversation with Matthew Milioni, "There are so many nice Mennonites who might have a chance at salvation if we can just reach them fast enough", with a goal to persuade them to under go full-immersion baptism. I, myself, passed muster with them since I had been fully immersed.

[Julian]

The closest my own group has had to this in recent times was "outreach" from a Foursquare Pentecostal group that considered us their mission field (despite us already holding to evangelical views of revival, salvation, and so forth). Overall, the experience was not positive. In general, our group maintains a hard stance against outside groups attempting to "evangelise" our members, and likewise takes a hard stance against new / novel views on salvation, works, and so forth.

There has been stuff like that in the Hutterite world but to my knowledge not in the recent past. People from a generation before me talk about the "charity movement" moving through. I don't know what things are like in the Old Order world but Hutterites in my circles do access the internet and have cell phones so a lot of the influence is coming more from the media people consume.

Very interesting. I used to have some good times with the people in Altona and Tasmania. However, I was observing in the case of Altona & related communities that evangelicalism/revivalism was tearing the groups apart. One consequence was families would move out to just live on their "own" - no longer attending church and believing they are Christians just fine being independent (maybe with 2 or 3 families living close by to operate a farm or business).

I have never heard of Tasmania but Altona is part of "Hutterite Christian Communities" which is an independent offshoot of the Hutterite world, connected with other communities like Fort Pitt. Those communities have been reshaped by evangelicalism and some of the dynamics you observed are going on there: usually still living in community, but less of an emphesis on community of goods.

So far, the only movements that have sustained their population long-term are the Old Orders. Most of the less-conservative Anabaptist groups have relied on sourcing members from Old Orders circles (including Hutterite circles) to refresh their ranks as their members continue to leave for even less conservative churches. This is sometimes called "transitional Anabaptism" or a "transitional church".
An open question is if Christianity can be integrated and practiced under modernity at all. My personal view is that it cannot. My own denomination has a mix of Old Order views and modernity and the modernity side of things seems to be the least sustainable, and also subject to the most change.

That is interesting, I was not familiar with the term "transitional church"! I've heard that in certain regions in Penselvania you can have the whole spectrum of Anabaptism from Old Order all the way to General Conference with multiple gradations in between. Could you tell me more about how the spectrum works? I hear people distinguish, for example, between "conservative mennonite" and "old order". Tell me more also about how your congregation is according to your description simultaneously revivalist, Old Order and modernist, what do you mean by those labels? I guess because Hutterites have a much more rigid church/world split, its a matter of either being in the community or out of it. You will of course see wide variation between different Hutterite colonies but not much movement between them.
I understand the tension you name, and I think definitely that tradition based thick communities are under a lot of strain in modernity. It comes from many different angles: The modern view of freedom, social media and the internet, capitalism, the technological drive for efficiency, the tension between traditional culture and American monoculture, and much more. Maybe the Hutterites are better able to integrate some of these technologies because we live in intentional community and so our communities are just 'thicker'. But we also feel the strain in many ways and I am not sure that you can really sustain traditional Anabaptism without restrictions on communication technologies. I'm open to the idea of our communities taking different forms as we recon with modernity, but I would hope those forms can hold onto our distinctives.

Followers of the Way has a unique set of doctrines but also has had some severe problems with practice and spiritual abuse that have led to them basically being a pariah in the rest of the Anabaptist world. It is my hope they overcome these things, but generally speaking, they view the rest of us Anabaptists as unsaved as a mission field. To quote a conversation with Matthew Milioni, "There are so many nice Mennonites who might have a chance at salvation if we can just reach them fast enough", with a goal to persuade them to under go full-immersion baptism. I, myself, passed muster with them since I had been fully immersed.

My impression of them, without having read much of their stuff is that they are simultaneously too conservative and too evangelical, your anecdote reinforces that view I had.

[Anthony]

Im an outsider/seeker that has joined and been part of a very conservative mennonite church for a few years now.

Ill give my opinions for what they’re worth.

“What experiences do you have with revivalist/evangelical movements in your setting?”
None, its been historically clamped down upon my conference’s entire existence. I view this as a positive. Though it has always existed in a sublimated form as quiet complaints like “maybe we should reach out more” or “we should show our gratitude toward Jesus in our worship”. These dont really go anywhere.

“This leads to an individualistic view of salvation that is not compatible with community life”
Your instincts are 100% accurate, evangelical/revivalist attitudes are corrosive to community life due to its emphasis on individual salvation, along with “the prompting of the holy spirit” that overrules traditional rules. This is one of the hallmarks of a dying anabaptist group. I dont see anything worthwhile to copy in mainstream evangelical circles so the direction of travel is negative.

“Has anyone found a good way to avoid this”
Join a traditional/conservative church.

“Is there a third way that has actually worked in practice”
Well, i think anabaptism is the third way. Though i mean conservative anabaptism like Old order/Hutterites/Conservative groups. I personally was enamored with traditional catholicism and orthodoxy before I joined my church (i still like both). I find that the traditional sects of apostolic faiths are the best way to combine a serious and deep faith tradition while rejecting American evangelical goofiness. Though what turned me off was the demographics of converts and cradle members were so jarring. By this i mean almost all converts being single men and most cradle members were old women, makes for a strange church atmosphere i imagine.

I would heavily agree with JohnH’s point in modernity and christianity being unable to integrate. Though I would not say that “traditional communities are under attack from modernity”, more like christianity itself is under attack. Traditional groups are the only ones able to resist, and liberal communities are dead as a result of modernity. Anabaptism isnt the only way to resist this, but anabaptism has the very unique and special aspect of restricting technology. This might be one of the main reasons its so successful and organically growing in such a degraded modern country.

[Neto]

Welcome, Julian.
As one of the few forum members with background or experience within the Mennonite Brethren, I'll just say that I have seen some of the effects of revivalism in the MB congregation where I grew up, and sort of wish for an association of "Old Mennonite Brethren". I'd even be OK with the traditional two separate entrances to the church house (one for the men, and the other for the women), and of course separate seating. I don't know how much you have studied or read about the beginnings of the MBs, but it has always had a strong emphasis on Christian 'piety' (for lack of a better word), as was also, of course, brotherhood. I think that unless there is a balance between these two elements of church life we will slip into one or the other of the two ditches that are all too ready to take us off of the 'narrow way'.

I now live in my wife's community, and culture. Our Mennonite congregation is made up of mostly people from either the more 'conservative' Swiss Mennonite groups or directly from the Amish. (Actually, these conservative Swiss Mennonite groups are themselves also Amish derived. There are of course other types of Mennonites here in this area, but we move in completely separate 'worlds', with little to no interaction.) Here lies the stark difference from the MB congregation where I grew up - There were families already in the congregation that were from the 'English' before this, but our community (small country church between two small towns in Oklahoma) suddenly grew quickly during the late 60's and 70's, and many people came into the congregation from completely outside of the entire anabaptist groups. It was perhaps too much, too fast to really 'absorb' them, so the congregation changed during that time. (I recall one Sunday when around 35 - 40 people were either baptized and take into the congregation, or taken in on the basis of their testimony. I don't think any of that group of new members had any prior experience in any kind of Mennonite congregation, and of the following decades many of them became a part of the core group of the congregation.)

[I have had very little exposure to Hutterites. My Dad was a delegate to the General Conference of the North American MB annual conference in the early 60's, which was held in South Dakota that year. The MB delegates visited a Hutterite colony, and the two groups sang hymns for one another across a white picket fence. (A childhood memory from a photo my Dad took that day....) My only personal experience was while I was attending Grace Bible Institute (Omaha, Nebraska), and the one date I had during that year was with a Wollman girl who, in the course of our evening together told me that her mom had warned her "not to get involved with a Plautdietsch guy". So that was that.

[Julian]

“Is there a third way that has actually worked in practice”
Well, i think anabaptism is the third way. Though i mean conservative anabaptism like Old order/Hutterites/Conservative groups. I personally was enamored with traditional catholicism and orthodoxy before I joined my church (i still like both). I find that the traditional sects of apostolic faiths are the best way to combine a serious and deep faith tradition while rejecting American evangelical goofiness. Though what turned me off was the demographics of converts and cradle members were so jarring. By this i mean almost all converts being single men and most cradle members were old women, makes for a strange church atmosphere i imagine.

I don't have time to respond in full, but I wanted to point you to this article by Dennis Martin: https://archive.goshen.edu/news/april-2003-martin/. He converted from Old Order Mennonite to Catholic and makes a similar observation. He ultimately argues that the tradition can't sustain itself under the conditions of modernity:

"Mennonites had once had an unwritten liturgy (i.e., a customary regular pattern of worship from week to week). They had had an unwritten sacramental and mediatorial understanding of the priesthood and bishop’s office (backed by divine election via the lot) and the Lord’s Supper.[17] They had had an unwritten canon law in the form of customary ways the elders of the region met, considered and ruled on a variety of potentially or actually divisive matters. All this began to fade as the rural subculture in which all this customarily took place disintegrated. The Mennonite church community I sought to come home to, while also seeking personal family roots in the soil of Elkhart County, had already ceased to exist, except notionally."

[Anthony]

“Is there a third way that has actually worked in practice”
Well, i think anabaptism is the third way. Though i mean conservative anabaptism like Old order/Hutterites/Conservative groups. I personally was enamored with traditional catholicism and orthodoxy before I joined my church (i still like both). I find that the traditional sects of apostolic faiths are the best way to combine a serious and deep faith tradition while rejecting American evangelical goofiness. Though what turned me off was the demographics of converts and cradle members were so jarring. By this i mean almost all converts being single men and most cradle members were old women, makes for a strange church atmosphere i imagine.

I don't have time to respond in full, but I wanted to point you to this article by Dennis Martin: https://archive.goshen.edu/news/april-2003-martin/. He converted from Old Order Mennonite to Catholic and makes a similar observation. He ultimately argues that the tradition can't sustain itself under the conditions of modernity:

"Mennonites had once had an unwritten liturgy (i.e., a customary regular pattern of worship from week to week). They had had an unwritten sacramental and mediatorial understanding of the priesthood and bishop’s office (backed by divine election via the lot) and the Lord’s Supper.[17] They had had an unwritten canon law in the form of customary ways the elders of the region met, considered and ruled on a variety of potentially or actually divisive matters. All this began to fade as the rural subculture in which all this customarily took place disintegrated. The Mennonite church community I sought to come home to, while also seeking personal family roots in the soil of Elkhart County, had already ceased to exist, except notionally."

Great article, I agree with everything except the conclusion. It mirrors my journey somewhat, atleast the analysis of contemporary christanity and viewing the potential options of denominations.

I would disagree that Catholicism is somehow the only way to stop this. Its exceptional saints and Papal infallability are not good enough to stop postmodern influence. Objectively the most successful groups that stop these corrosive influences are Old Order Amish, Hasidic Jews, and anyone who copies what these groups do. Looking at the similarities of successful groups who thrive in spite of modernity, its not strict theology or exceptional pious examples. Its strong community, strong rules on behavior and lifestyle, heavy ingroup/outgroup distinction, etc.

I also think he exaggerates the death of Christian conservatism as a lifestyle. Around me theres still tons of Old older mennonites farming. There is also the fact that the conservative lifestyle takes many forms, hasidic jews “earn” most of their money taking welfare and working in low value jobs, but they have a thriving and growing religion.

Certain forms of tradition seem to be doing very well under modernity, and depending how the uncertain future goes, could outlast it. Consider the fact that Amish/Hasidic jews have ~6 kids average and secular people have ~1. With advancements in technology I imagine the landscape will look increasingly strange and the healthy Christian groups will be based on values the Old Orders naturally possess.

[JohnH]

I don't have time to respond in full, but I wanted to point you to this article by Dennis Martin: https://archive.goshen.edu/news/april-2003-martin/. He converted from Old Order Mennonite to Catholic and makes a similar observation. He ultimately argues that the tradition can't sustain itself under the conditions of modernity:

Of course, the Roman Catholic institution is the original progenitor of modernity, and is also an institution that is crumbling at a far faster rate than Old Order Anabaptism is; it seems an odd place to go.

Then again, I don't really accept Roman Catholic claims of apostolic authority that amount to "We are authoritative because we say so."

[Southerner]

Hello all, I am new to the forum so I would love to be directed to where this has been discussed.

What I am curious about is this: For those who are members of traditional groups, what experiences do you have with revivalist/evangelical movements coming through your communities? How have you navigated or resisted these movements? How would you describe the difference between traditional Anabaptism and the revivalist versions?

A bit of my own experience. I am S1 Hutterite, which is basically the least conservative of the Hutterite groups (I did a undergrad at university).

I interact mostly w the Dariusleut and I am wondering if you are a Schmiede 1, do you have revival meetings or go to other countries to "witness for the Lord"? More progressive groups like the Eastern PA Mennonite conference and Holdeman's do a lot of evangelism in other countries and they have "revival meetings".

The Dariusleut had members in Japan for a while...correct me if I am wrong.