Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

General Christian Theology
Bootstrap
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Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by Bootstrap »

barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 9:00 pm I guess we could call it post Christian Nationalism. I think most looking back agree German nationalism in the 30's was headed in a un-Christian direction but the question that haunts me is how many Christians could see it at the time.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writings are rich sources for this. Here's a sampling (created with GPT):

Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

On Christ vs. ideology (from *The Cost of Discipleship*):
"The church does not need brilliant personalities but faithful servants of Jesus and the brethren. Not in the former, but in the latter is the lack."
→ Echoes Barmen’s rejection of the Führer principle in the Church (Thesis IV).

On the State’s limits (from *Ethics*):
"The Church is the Church only when it exists for others… not dominating, but helping and serving. It must tell men of every calling what it means to live for Christ, to exist for others."
→ Matches Barmen’s insistence that the State has a role under God, but cannot claim total control (Thesis V).

On responsibility when the State becomes lawless (1933 sermon):
"The church has three possible ways it can act toward the state: in the first place it can ask the state whether its actions are legitimate… in the second place it can aid the victims of the state’s actions; and in the third place it can jam a spoke in the wheel itself."
→ One of his most famous early statements, showing obedience to Christ may require resistance.

On ultimate allegiance (*Letters and Papers from Prison*):
"We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice, we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself."
→ A vivid, quotable summary of his stance.

On Christ as Lord alone (*The Cost of Discipleship*):
"When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die."
→ The sharpest summary of why allegiance to Christ cannot be mixed with allegiance to Hitler.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by Bootstrap »

Here is Bonhoeffer's "The Church and the Jewish Question":

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cpy ... dwhntph9zi

There are three versions, in separate tabs in that document:

1. The original German version
2. An English translation that I created with Google Translate - it's a little awkward to read
3. A simpler translation created with GPT - not yet carefully checked
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JohnH
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by JohnH »

Boot,

Can you please go easy on using GPT? Any of the rest of us could cut and paste "please tell me about bonhoeffer" into a chatbot. This kind of thing is really not helpful, and I don't know if the text is credible. If you wrote things out of your own knowledge, it's far more credible, because you are more credible and trustworthy than a chatbot.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 10:58 amCan you please go easy on using GPT? Any of the rest of us could cut and paste "please tell me about bonhoeffer" into a chatbot. This kind of thing is really not helpful, and I don't know if the text is credible. If you wrote things out of your own knowledge, it's far more credible, because you are more credible and trustworthy than a chatbot.
I have been reading Bonhoeffer since the 1970s. I have read his "The Cost of Discipleship" at least a handful of times, in both English and German. I have read his "Letters and Papers from Prison" in both languages too, several times. I have read only part of his "Ethics". The sermon was new to me - I provided the text in the second message.

But I think quite a few people here have read these works and own them. To me, the summary looks accurate, certainly in keeping with the kinds of things Bonhoeffer wrote and said. But I hope others will chip in.
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mike
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by mike »

I have read Cost of Discipleship. It's been awhile. But I remember being really puzzled after I finished it why Bonhoeffer got involved in a plot to kill Hitler given what he said about the Christian and violence.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by Bootstrap »

mike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:37 am I have read Cost of Discipleship. It's been awhile. But I remember being really puzzled after I finished it why Bonhoeffer got involved in a plot to kill Hitler given what he said about the Christian and violence.
Yeah, me too. I don't think that's an example we should follow.

He knew he was acting against his own teaching in Cost of Discipleship, and that’s why his story is so haunting. He felt letting Hitler go on was also morally wrong, and so he cast himself completely on the mercy of God — as he wrote, “Before other men he is justified by dire necessity; before himself he is acquitted by his conscience, but before God he hopes only for grace.” (Ethics, DBW 6).
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mike
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by mike »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:19 pm
mike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:37 am I have read Cost of Discipleship. It's been awhile. But I remember being really puzzled after I finished it why Bonhoeffer got involved in a plot to kill Hitler given what he said about the Christian and violence.
Yeah, me too. I don't think that's an example we should follow.

He knew he was acting against his own teaching in Cost of Discipleship, and that’s why his story is so haunting. He felt letting Hitler go on was also morally wrong, and so he cast himself completely on the mercy of God — as he wrote, “Before other men he is justified by dire necessity; before himself he is acquitted by his conscience, but before God he hopes only for grace.” (Ethics, DBW 6).
We don't really know what his reasoning was since he was killed before he would have really had the freedom to speak. Which is unfortunate. Despite the things he had to say that resonate with principles of nonviolence and two-kingdom theology, the legacy he left was basically that of mainstream Christianity which does not disavow the use of the sword for the Christian.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by Bootstrap »

mike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:27 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:19 pm
mike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:37 am I have read Cost of Discipleship. It's been awhile. But I remember being really puzzled after I finished it why Bonhoeffer got involved in a plot to kill Hitler given what he said about the Christian and violence.
Yeah, me too. I don't think that's an example we should follow.

He knew he was acting against his own teaching in Cost of Discipleship, and that’s why his story is so haunting. He felt letting Hitler go on was also morally wrong, and so he cast himself completely on the mercy of God — as he wrote, “Before other men he is justified by dire necessity; before himself he is acquitted by his conscience, but before God he hopes only for grace.” (Ethics, DBW 6).
We don't really know what his reasoning was since he was killed before he would have really had the freedom to speak. Which is unfortunate. Despite the things he had to say that resonate with principles of nonviolence and two-kingdom theology, the legacy he left was basically that of mainstream Christianity which does not disavow the use of the sword for the Christian.
I think we can learn from both the good and the bad in his life. He was not a perfect saint, but he got some things very right and some things very wrong in ways that can teach us. He certainly had the courage to stand up against evil, and spoke out against idolatry and evil in ways most of us would not have dared from a profoundly biblical basis.

I think all of that is part of his legacy. Mainstream Christianity followed Hitler, Bonhoeffer did not. Many Mennonites also applauded Hitler at the time. I suspect pretty much all Christians in the time of Hitler had complicated legacies.
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mike
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by mike »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:30 pm
mike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:27 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:19 pm

Yeah, me too. I don't think that's an example we should follow.

He knew he was acting against his own teaching in Cost of Discipleship, and that’s why his story is so haunting. He felt letting Hitler go on was also morally wrong, and so he cast himself completely on the mercy of God — as he wrote, “Before other men he is justified by dire necessity; before himself he is acquitted by his conscience, but before God he hopes only for grace.” (Ethics, DBW 6).
We don't really know what his reasoning was since he was killed before he would have really had the freedom to speak. Which is unfortunate. Despite the things he had to say that resonate with principles of nonviolence and two-kingdom theology, the legacy he left was basically that of mainstream Christianity which does not disavow the use of the sword for the Christian.
I think we can learn from both the good and the bad in his life. He was not a perfect saint, but he got some things very right and some things very wrong in ways that can teach us. He certainly had the courage to stand up against evil, and spoke out against idolatry and evil in ways most of us would not have dared from a profoundly biblical basis.

I think all of that is part of his legacy. Mainstream Christianity followed Hitler, Bonhoeffer did not. Many Mennonites also applauded Hitler at the time. I suspect pretty much all Christians in the time of Hitler had complicated legacies.
That is what I was trying to say. His legacy is complicated. And I suspect that had he lived, it would be made more complex yet by us knowing more about his reasoning for supporting the assassination plot.

We could say the same sorts of things about many soldiers in the fight against Hitler - they had the courage to stand up against evil. But they used the method of the kingdom of this world in that struggle - the sword. As, at the end, did Bonhoeffer.
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barnhart
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Re: Bonhoeffer on Christ, the Church, and Resistance

Post by barnhart »

mike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:37 am I have read Cost of Discipleship. It's been awhile. But I remember being really puzzled after I finished it why Bonhoeffer got involved in a plot to kill Hitler given what he said about the Christian and violence.
https://spotify.link/5T4v6C3LCXb

This interview might give you another viewpoint on Bonhoeffer. If you don't do Spotify, Google "Theology in the raw, Mark Thiessen, Who was Bonhoeffer."
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