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Inside and Outside the Cup (Poor Man's Version)

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:42 pm
by ken_sylvania
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:23 pm I'm not trying to push you out of the thread, but I am asking you to read the book before posting further in this thread. In most of this "vigorous participation", I think we have been talking past each other, and I suspect that's partly because you haven't read the book I we were discussing.
Maybe you were discussing John D's pamphlet, but I wasn't. I don't have his pamphlet about "To Be or Not To Be Plain" and don't currently have plans to buy it although I might if I find it at a book sale sometime. I posted some questions/thoughts about some things that were being said on this forum about Jesus teaching about genuine righteousness.

Re: Inside and Outside the Cup (Poor Man's Version)

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:51 pm
by mike
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:42 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:23 pm I'm not trying to push you out of the thread, but I am asking you to read the book before posting further in this thread. In most of this "vigorous participation", I think we have been talking past each other, and I suspect that's partly because you haven't read the book I we were discussing.
Maybe you were discussing John D's pamphlet, but I wasn't. I don't have his pamphlet about "To Be or Not To Be Plain" and don't currently have plans to buy it although I might if I find it at a book sale sometime. I posted some questions/thoughts about some things that were being said on this forum about Jesus teaching about genuine righteousness.
The Kindle version is $.99. Go for it, Bezos needs the money


Re: Inside and Outside the Cup (Poor Man's Version)

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:53 pm
by ken_sylvania
mike wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:51 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:42 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:23 pm I'm not trying to push you out of the thread, but I am asking you to read the book before posting further in this thread. In most of this "vigorous participation", I think we have been talking past each other, and I suspect that's partly because you haven't read the book I we were discussing.
Maybe you were discussing John D's pamphlet, but I wasn't. I don't have his pamphlet about "To Be or Not To Be Plain" and don't currently have plans to buy it although I might if I find it at a book sale sometime. I posted some questions/thoughts about some things that were being said on this forum about Jesus teaching about genuine righteousness.
The Kindle version is $.99. Go for it, Bezos needs the money
I don't have Kindle...

Re: Inside and Outside the Cup (Poor Man's Version)

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:58 pm
by cooper
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:53 pm I don't have Kindle...
You can read Kindle books on a browser. Read.amazon.com

Re: Inside and Outside the Cup (Poor Man's Version)

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:05 pm
by ken_sylvania
If taken in isolation, Jesus comments to the Pharisees could be interpreted to suggest that one only needs to focus on the heart, and then everything else will be right. But that interpretation has a number of problems.

Jesus talks often about obedience, and doing the will of God. He never tells us to obey God only when we feel like it.

When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to inherit eternal life, Jesus didn't tell him to repent of his selfishness or his love of riches, even though it seems that was his problem. Instead, he told the man to do some works that were apparently intended to help him understand his attitudes and to help to get his heart to the right place.

I believe that God commands us to do right regardless of whether we feel a desire to do right. And that the choice to obey Him will in time affect our desire to do what is right. In other words, we must be clean both inside and outside and make the proper choices to be that way.

Re: Inside and Outside the Cup (Poor Man's Version)

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:10 pm
by Bootstrap
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:05 pm If taken in isolation, Jesus comments to the Pharisees could be interpreted to suggest that one only needs to focus on the heart, and then everything else will be right. But that interpretation has a number of problems.
Clearly, nobody in that other thread would interpret those comments that way. I want to say that so that nobody gets the impression that someone was interpreting these passages that way.

Well, I'd add one footnote. "Heart" had a very different meaning in biblical Greek and Hebrew than it does today. I don't think you can separate the biblical heart from obedience, e.g.

Ezekiel 36:26-27: "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

Psalm 119:34 "Give me understanding, so that I may keep your law and obey it with all my heart."

Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commands."

Romans 6:17 "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance."

1 John 5:3 "In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome."
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:05 pmJesus talks often about obedience, and doing the will of God. He never tells us to obey God only when we feel like it.
Of course.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:05 pmWhen the rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to inherit eternal life, Jesus didn't tell him to repent of his selfishness or his love of riches, even though it seems that was his problem. Instead, he told the man to do some works that were apparently intended to help him understand his attitudes and to help to get his heart to the right place.

I believe that God commands us to do right regardless of whether we feel a desire to do right. And that the choice to obey Him will in time affect our desire to do what is right. In other words, we must be clean both inside and outside and make the proper choices to be that way.
I think we agree on all of that.

Re: Inside and Outside the Cup (Poor Man's Version)

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2024 3:03 pm
by Bootstrap
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:05 pm If taken in isolation, Jesus comments to the Pharisees could be interpreted to suggest that one only needs to focus on the heart, and then everything else will be right.
I suspect we mostly agree on how to interpret these passages. Maybe leaving the pamphlet behind will make this easier. Let's focus on the scriptures and what they say, maybe we can come to agreement? I will explain how I understand these passages, let me know where you agree and disagree.

Jesus and his disciples violated religious customs that the Pharisees considered important - washing hands. They ate with defiled hands, and Jesus did not apologize for that. Instead, he pushed back on the Pharisees for focusing on "the outside of the cup":

Luke 11:
When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal.

Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
Did Jesus submit to the tangible cultural norm of washing hands before the meal? Did he encourage others to faithfully follow this practice?

This is especially clear in Mark 7:
So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”
To me, the right way to understand the inside of the cup and the outside of the cup is this:

1. Jesus accused the Pharisees of cleaning the outside of the cup, but not the inside.
2. Jesus told the Pharisees to clean the inside, saying that if we clean the inside, the outside would then be clean as well.
3. Cleaning the inside also includes concrete, observable actions. For instance, in Luke, Jesus says this: "as for what is inside you -- be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you".
4. Jesus warned against doing the same things "to be seen by others" - "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven." To me, cleaning the outside of the cup is the same thing as doing things in order to be seen by others.
5. Jesus emphasized "the weightier matters of the law". We should too.

I think the inside of the cup is pretty much the same thing that the Bible calls "the heart", which is not just feelings, it includes everything that goes on inside us. And it can bring forth both good and evil. This connection with the heart is clear in Matthew's version of this or a similar incident:

Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”

Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”