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ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:04 am

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 4:28 pm This is a debate my wife and I have at least once a week. I insist, perhaps wrongly, that Faith and Works are not exclusive ideas, that they're deeply interconnected, bordering on synonymous and that taken together they lead to salvation. She insists, being influenced by the late Tim Keller, that Faith leads to Salvation leads to Works...but that Works are not necessary for the previous 2 ideas to be extant. I see the value in both paradigms and also the pitfalls. My biggest concern from her argument is the pitfall of easy-believism which infects evangelicalism and you stated well the pitfall from mine (though I didn't grow up with OO mindset).

James says that any faith that isn't coupled with Works is a dead faith.

In my experience I would say Faith and Works exist together in a symbiotic relationship. Either one without the other is dead. Much is made of the fact that Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, but to stop there is to ignore Hebrews 11 which talks about everything that Abraham did "through faith." In fact, none of the heroes of faith are celebrated because of Faith that wasn't coupled with Works.

But I think the works that matter most to Jesus are not the outside-of-the-cup, cultural works. If culture helps you better practice faith, hope, love, and holiness, more power to you. But I don't think the works Jesus cared about most were the outside-of-the-cup works.

One thing I struggled with when I read the booklet: I know some exemplary Christians who are not plain, and I have known some plain Christians who were not exemplary. And vice versa. The booklet tends to imply that the true Christians are the cultural Christians, the ones that are easy to identify by the outside of the cup. I see absolutely nothing in the New Testament that teaches that.

Posting here to avoid violating OP terms and conditions.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 2:44 pm

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:04 am

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 4:28 pm This is a debate my wife and I have at least once a week. I insist, perhaps wrongly, that Faith and Works are not exclusive ideas, that they're deeply interconnected, bordering on synonymous and that taken together they lead to salvation. She insists, being influenced by the late Tim Keller, that Faith leads to Salvation leads to Works...but that Works are not necessary for the previous 2 ideas to be extant. I see the value in both paradigms and also the pitfalls. My biggest concern from her argument is the pitfall of easy-believism which infects evangelicalism and you stated well the pitfall from mine (though I didn't grow up with OO mindset).

James says that any faith that isn't coupled with Works is a dead faith.

In my experience I would say Faith and Works exist together in a symbiotic relationship. Either one without the other is dead. Much is made of the fact that Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, but to stop there is to ignore Hebrews 11 which talks about everything that Abraham did "through faith." In fact, none of the heroes of faith are celebrated because of Faith that wasn't coupled with Works.

But I think the works that matter most to Jesus are not the outside-of-the-cup, cultural works.

My Bible doesn't use the phrase "outside-of-the-cup, cultural works" and I'm really not sure what you mean by that. How are you differentiating between and inside-of-the-cup work vs. an outside-of-the-cup work? Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as a culture of obedience to Jesus?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 2:44 pmIf culture helps you better practice faith, hope, love, and holiness, more power to you. But I don't think the works Jesus cared about most were the outside-of-the-cup works.

I have to assume that your terminology of "outside-of-the-cup" works comes from Jesus' words to the Pharisees where He told them to cleanse the inside of the cup and platter and then the outside would be clean as well. If that is in fact what you are referring to, how can you possibly say that Jesus cared more about the inside than about the outside? In fact, he basically is saying that it's impossible to have the inside clean and the outside dirty. He says nothing here to suggest that the outside is less important than the inside.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 2:44 pm One thing I struggled with when I read the booklet: I know some exemplary Christians who are not plain, and I have known some plain Christians who were not exemplary. And vice versa. The booklet tends to imply that the true Christians are the cultural Christians, the ones that are easy to identify by the outside of the cup. I see absolutely nothing in the New Testament that teaches that.

I have never known an exemplary Christian who was careless about whether his lifestyle was one of obedience to Christ.

Jesus said to let our light shine before men, so that men may see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven. The only reasonable interpretation here is that it is easy for people to see by our lives (outside of the cup) if we are following Jesus. People can't see the inside of the cup.

Jesus also told the Pharisees that if the inside of the cup is clean the outside will be clean also. Meaning that if people see a dirty outside, they can be assured the inside is not clean - if they see a clean outside the inside may or may not be clean.

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:05 pm My Bible doesn't use the phrase "outside-of-the-cup, cultural works" and I'm really not sure what you mean by that. How are you differentiating between and inside-of-the-cup work vs. an outside-of-the-cup work? Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as a culture of obedience to Jesus?

Precisely my point. The New Testament does not talk about establishing a "culture". It does warn against focusing on the outside of the cup.

The New Testament talks about obedience, it does not talk about a "culture" of obedience, and especially not an externally observable set of cultural markers as something central to obedience. To me, the Martin booklet inserts additional phrases like "culture" into various things the Bible does say, then makes "culture" a primary thing, even though the Bible doesn't mention it at all.

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:05 pm

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 2:44 pmIf culture helps you better practice faith, hope, love, and holiness, more power to you. But I don't think the works Jesus cared about most were the outside-of-the-cup works.

I have to assume that your terminology of "outside-of-the-cup" works comes from Jesus' words to the Pharisees where He told them to cleanse the inside of the cup and platter and then the outside would be clean as well. If that is in fact what you are referring to, how can you possibly say that Jesus cared more about the inside than about the outside? In fact, he basically is saying that it's impossible to have the inside clean and the outside dirty. He says nothing here to suggest that the outside is less important than the inside.

Yes - here's the quote:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

I think Jesus is saying we should focus on the inside of the cup, not the externals. The Pharisees had distinctive clothing, but Jesus does not encourage that:

Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

And that's the danger in focusing on the visible. It's so much easier to get the outside of the cup right. It's so easy to get approval from others for doing that.

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:05 pm

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 2:44 pm One thing I struggled with when I read the booklet: I know some exemplary Christians who are not plain, and I have known some plain Christians who were not exemplary. And vice versa. The booklet tends to imply that the true Christians are the cultural Christians, the ones that are easy to identify by the outside of the cup. I see absolutely nothing in the New Testament that teaches that.

I have never known an exemplary Christian who was careless about whether his lifestyle was one of obedience to Christ.

Jesus said to let our light shine before men, so that men may see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven. The only reasonable interpretation here is that it is easy for people to see by our lives (outside of the cup) if we are following Jesus. People can't see the inside of the cup.

Jesus also told the Pharisees that if the inside of the cup is clean the outside will be clean also. Meaning that if people see a dirty outside, they can be assured the inside is not clean - if they see a clean outside the inside may or may not be clean.

You seem to be saying Jesus taught us to judge by the outside of the cup. I think that's the opposite of what he was saying. Jesus was saying the outside can look good while the inside is not.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:21 am

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:05 pm My Bible doesn't use the phrase "outside-of-the-cup, cultural works" and I'm really not sure what you mean by that. How are you differentiating between and inside-of-the-cup work vs. an outside-of-the-cup work? Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as a culture of obedience to Jesus?

Precisely my point. The New Testament does not talk about establishing a "culture". It does warn against focusing on the outside of the cup.

The New Testament talks about obedience, it does not talk about a "culture" of obedience, and especially not an externally observable set of cultural markers as something central to obedience. To me, the Martin booklet inserts additional phrases like "culture" into various things the Bible does say, then makes "culture" a primary thing, even though the Bible doesn't mention it at all.

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:05 pm

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 2:44 pmIf culture helps you better practice faith, hope, love, and holiness, more power to you. But I don't think the works Jesus cared about most were the outside-of-the-cup works.

I have to assume that your terminology of "outside-of-the-cup" works comes from Jesus' words to the Pharisees where He told them to cleanse the inside of the cup and platter and then the outside would be clean as well. If that is in fact what you are referring to, how can you possibly say that Jesus cared more about the inside than about the outside? In fact, he basically is saying that it's impossible to have the inside clean and the outside dirty. He says nothing here to suggest that the outside is less important than the inside.

Yes - here's the quote:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

I think Jesus is saying we should focus on the inside of the cup, not the externals. The Pharisees had distinctive clothing, but Jesus does not encourage that:

Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

And that's the danger in focusing on the visible. It's so much easier to get the outside of the cup right. It's so easy to get approval from others for doing that.

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:05 pm

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 2:44 pm One thing I struggled with when I read the booklet: I know some exemplary Christians who are not plain, and I have known some plain Christians who were not exemplary. And vice versa. The booklet tends to imply that the true Christians are the cultural Christians, the ones that are easy to identify by the outside of the cup. I see absolutely nothing in the New Testament that teaches that.

I have never known an exemplary Christian who was careless about whether his lifestyle was one of obedience to Christ.

Jesus said to let our light shine before men, so that men may see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven. The only reasonable interpretation here is that it is easy for people to see by our lives (outside of the cup) if we are following Jesus. People can't see the inside of the cup.

Jesus also told the Pharisees that if the inside of the cup is clean the outside will be clean also. Meaning that if people see a dirty outside, they can be assured the inside is not clean - if they see a clean outside the inside may or may not be clean.

You seem to be saying Jesus taught us to judge by the outside of the cup. I think that's the opposite of what he was saying. Jesus was saying the outside can look good while the inside is not.

Go back and read it again. First, I was referring to what other people see in our lives, not whether or how we are to judge others.

Secondly, I said "if they see a clean outside the inside may or may not be clean." How is that the opposite of "the outside can look good while the inside is not."?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:21 am

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

I really don't think that Martin is suggesting in any way, shape or form that it is OK to no have purity on the inside of the cup.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:21 am
You seem to be saying Jesus taught us to judge by the outside of the cup. I think that's the opposite of what he was saying. Jesus was saying the outside can look good while the inside is not.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Jesus had some very clear teaching on observable outside fruit.

Mt 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 10:11 am Go back and read it again. First, I was referring to what other people see in our lives, not whether or how we are to judge others.

Secondly, I said "if they see a clean outside the inside may or may not be clean." How is that the opposite of "the outside can look good while the inside is not."

!!! SNIP !!!
I really don't think that Martin is suggesting in any way, shape or form that it is OK to no have purity on the inside of the cup.

I apologize - I misread the quote under "Secondly".

I am mostly saying that I think the inside of the cup is what really counts. I am not saying there should be nothing observable, but I am definitely saying the culture that really counts is the culture that focus on the inside of the cup.

GaryK wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 10:15 am Jesus had some very clear teaching on observable outside fruit.

Mt 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

But what kind of fruit is he talking about? The sheep's clothing that these wolves wear? Does a culture of sheep's clothing create this kind of fruit?

I think Jesus is talking about the things he discusses in the rest of the Sermon on the Mount. And much of that is a warning against judging by externals. For instance:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

FWIW, if I am going to put time and effort into this thread, I'd like it to be somewhere other than Bunny Trails. Could these last posts be resurrected to a thread with a name like "Inside the cup, outside the cup"?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 10:30 am

GaryK wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 10:15 am Jesus had some very clear teaching on observable outside fruit.

Mt 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

But what kind of fruit is he talking about? The sheep's clothing that these wolves wear? Does a culture of sheep's clothing create this kind of fruit?

I think Jesus is talking about the things he discusses in the rest of the Sermon on the Mount. And much of that is a warning against judging by externals. For instance:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Notice it says "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". Jesus is not speaking negatively about sheep's clothing. He's talking about bad fruit coming from hypocritical prophets who wear sheep's clothing. It will become evident at some point that such people are hypocrites. He says it's important to observe the fruit coming from a person's life. I believe Jesus loves to see His people wearing sheep's clothing AND bearing good fruits.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

Luke 18:20 wrote:And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

This sort of thing seems quite similar to what's being termed "focusing on the outside of the cup." Jesus here is instructing the rich young ruler to go sell and give, not because of the moral rightness or wrongness of that action specifically, but because of what that action would do for the man's heart. Why didn't Jesus just tell this young man to focus on repentance, love, mercy, and peace - trusting that if the man would get there on the inside it would affect the outside of his life?