The Israeli state?

[Judas Maccabeus]

An obvious question is if this same concern for various ethnic groups to have a home and make a state of it extends to other people. Israel is run as an effective apartheid state where Jews have far more rights than non-Jews, regardless of citizenship.

As do Muslim, Chinese, and many African states.

Citizens of Israel have equal rights, as in the US, no matter their ethnicity. Because they are the majority, their voice is stronger, but the individual citizen has the same rights. I am sure there are areas of work that need to be done, just as in the US.

Arab citizens in Israel definitely do not have equal rights. Not even close.

And more to the point, Israel claims control over the territory of the West Bank yet grants the people stuck living there almost no rights (including no right to vote). The end result of this is a minority gets to decide who wins elections, with the resulting undemocratic rule.

I used to believe like you did until I worked for a business there and regularly travelled there, and saw how poorly Arab citizens are treated. They are second class citizens. Palestinians are third class.

Arab citizens simply are not equal. Not even close, not even the Christian ones. Plenty of employment and housing discrimination, largely because they do not serve in the army, and an army record is a prerequisite for most good jobs. Schools and housing are not allocated equal money. Even Arab Israeli citizens are abused at checkpoints, I have seen that with my own eyes.

Not to mention settlers are stealing land and water from them wholesale. So bad that the US designated one of their groups "special designated individuals" and American companies cannot do business with them.

What some do not understand is that a settler slogan "Greater Israel" means the same thing as "From the River to the sea." Both are demands for the removal of the other. Both are wrong.

Spent a year in Jordan, friend worked making Sunday school material in E. Jerusalem, set up his Desktop Publishing System. (Really hard before unicode) Spent a good bit of time there. Speak fair to good Arabic, so I know what happens .

[Nomad]

As do Muslim, Chinese, and many African states.

Citizens of Israel have equal rights, as in the US, no matter their ethnicity. Because they are the majority, their voice is stronger, but the individual citizen has the same rights. I am sure there are areas of work that need to be done, just as in the US.

Arab citizens in Israel definitely do not have equal rights. Not even close.

And more to the point, Israel claims control over the territory of the West Bank yet grants the people stuck living there almost no rights (including no right to vote). The end result of this is a minority gets to decide who wins elections, with the resulting undemocratic rule.

I used to believe like you did until I worked for a business there and regularly travelled there, and saw how poorly Arab citizens are treated. They are second class citizens. Palestinians are third class.

Arab citizens simply are not equal. Not even close, not even the Christian ones. Plenty of employment and housing discrimination, largely because they do not serve in the army, and an army record is a prerequisite for most good jobs. Schools and housing are not allocated equal money. Even Arab Israeli citizens are abused at checkpoints, I have seen that with my own eyes.

Not to mention settlers are stealing land and water from them wholesale. So bad that the US designated one of their groups "special designated individuals" and American companies cannot do business with them.

What some do not understand is that a settler slogan "Greater Israel" means the same thing as "From the River to the sea." Both are demands for the removal of the other. Both are wrong.

Spent a year in Jordan, friend worked making Sunday school material in E. Jerusalem, set up his Desktop Publishing System. (Really hard before unicode) Spent a good bit of time there. Speak fair to good Arabic, so I know what happens .

While there are actually Arabs in the Israeli military and at last count (that I found) there are 10 Arabs in the Israeli Parliament...I'm sure there is discrimination of Arabs in Israel. Especially in the settler communities of West Banks.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Arab citizens in Israel definitely do not have equal rights. Not even close.

And more to the point, Israel claims control over the territory of the West Bank yet grants the people stuck living there almost no rights (including no right to vote). The end result of this is a minority gets to decide who wins elections, with the resulting undemocratic rule.

I used to believe like you did until I worked for a business there and regularly travelled there, and saw how poorly Arab citizens are treated. They are second class citizens. Palestinians are third class.

Arab citizens simply are not equal. Not even close, not even the Christian ones. Plenty of employment and housing discrimination, largely because they do not serve in the army, and an army record is a prerequisite for most good jobs. Schools and housing are not allocated equal money. Even Arab Israeli citizens are abused at checkpoints, I have seen that with my own eyes.

Not to mention settlers are stealing land and water from them wholesale. So bad that the US designated one of their groups "special designated individuals" and American companies cannot do business with them.

What some do not understand is that a settler slogan "Greater Israel" means the same thing as "From the River to the sea." Both are demands for the removal of the other. Both are wrong.

Spent a year in Jordan, friend worked making Sunday school material in E. Jerusalem, set up his Desktop Publishing System. (Really hard before unicode) Spent a good bit of time there. Speak fair to good Arabic, so I know what happens .

While there are actually Arabs in the Israeli military and at last count (that I found) there are 10 Arabs in the Israeli Parliament...I'm sure there is discrimination of Arabs in Israel. Especially in the settler communities of West Banks.

None but Jews are drafted. Are these Muslims (absolutely none serve), Christians (some actually do serve, but they keep them in their own units, and in the far south, for reasons to difficult to explain) or Druze (many do serve, but accd. To news accounts, they are not seeing the benefits. I suspect you are running into Druze.

If you saw the difference in quality of infrastructure in even Christian Arab villages in the north, versus nearby Jewish villages, you would likely be a bit surprised. The West Bank is a whole different world. What is happening seems to be a coordinated attempt to drive them out, to build yet more settlements.

[Nomad]

Arab citizens simply are not equal. Not even close, not even the Christian ones. Plenty of employment and housing discrimination, largely because they do not serve in the army, and an army record is a prerequisite for most good jobs. Schools and housing are not allocated equal money. Even Arab Israeli citizens are abused at checkpoints, I have seen that with my own eyes.

Not to mention settlers are stealing land and water from them wholesale. So bad that the US designated one of their groups "special designated individuals" and American companies cannot do business with them.

What some do not understand is that a settler slogan "Greater Israel" means the same thing as "From the River to the sea." Both are demands for the removal of the other. Both are wrong.

Spent a year in Jordan, friend worked making Sunday school material in E. Jerusalem, set up his Desktop Publishing System. (Really hard before unicode) Spent a good bit of time there. Speak fair to good Arabic, so I know what happens .

While there are actually Arabs in the Israeli military and at last count (that I found) there are 10 Arabs in the Israeli Parliament...I'm sure there is discrimination of Arabs in Israel. Especially in the settler communities of West Banks.

None but Jews are drafted. Are these Muslims (absolutely none serve), Christians (some actually do serve, but they keep them in their own units, and in the far south, for reasons to difficult to explain) or Druze (many do serve, but accd. To news accounts, they are not seeing the benefits. I suspect you are running into Druze.

If you saw the difference in quality of infrastructure in even Christian Arab villages in the north, versus nearby Jewish villages, you would likely be a bit surprised. The West Bank is a whole different world. What is happening seems to be a coordinated attempt to drive them out, to build yet more settlements.

I know. I've been there.

[Nomad]

Arab citizens simply are not equal. Not even close, not even the Christian ones. Plenty of employment and housing discrimination, largely because they do not serve in the army, and an army record is a prerequisite for most good jobs. Schools and housing are not allocated equal money. Even Arab Israeli citizens are abused at checkpoints, I have seen that with my own eyes.

Not to mention settlers are stealing land and water from them wholesale. So bad that the US designated one of their groups "special designated individuals" and American companies cannot do business with them.

What some do not understand is that a settler slogan "Greater Israel" means the same thing as "From the River to the sea." Both are demands for the removal of the other. Both are wrong.

Spent a year in Jordan, friend worked making Sunday school material in E. Jerusalem, set up his Desktop Publishing System. (Really hard before unicode) Spent a good bit of time there. Speak fair to good Arabic, so I know what happens .

While there are actually Arabs in the Israeli military and at last count (that I found) there are 10 Arabs in the Israeli Parliament...I'm sure there is discrimination of Arabs in Israel. Especially in the settler communities of West Banks.

None but Jews are drafted. Are these Muslims (absolutely none serve), Christians (some actually do serve, but they keep them in their own units, and in the far south, for reasons to difficult to explain) or Druze (many do serve, but accd. To news accounts, they are not seeing the benefits. I suspect you are running into Druze.

If you saw the difference in quality of infrastructure in even Christian Arab villages in the north, versus nearby Jewish villages, you would likely be a bit surprised. The West Bank is a whole different world. What is happening seems to be a coordinated attempt to drive them out, to build yet more settlements.

I know some of the Bedouin Arab Israelis in the military are Muslim. In fact 1 of them fought off some hamas with his idf unit during Oct. 9th. I doubt the number in the military is very high however...

The Arabs in the Israeli Parliament are Muslims.

[Judas Maccabeus]

While there are actually Arabs in the Israeli military and at last count (that I found) there are 10 Arabs in the Israeli Parliament...I'm sure there is discrimination of Arabs in Israel. Especially in the settler communities of West Banks.

None but Jews are drafted. Are these Muslims (absolutely none serve), Christians (some actually do serve, but they keep them in their own units, and in the far south, for reasons to difficult to explain) or Druze (many do serve, but accd. To news accounts, they are not seeing the benefits. I suspect you are running into Druze.

If you saw the difference in quality of infrastructure in even Christian Arab villages in the north, versus nearby Jewish villages, you would likely be a bit surprised. The West Bank is a whole different world. What is happening seems to be a coordinated attempt to drive them out, to build yet more settlements.

I know some of the Bedouin Arab Israelis in the military are Muslim. In fact 1 of them fought off some hamas with his idf unit during Oct. 9th. I doubt the number in the military is very high however...

The Arabs in the Israeli Parliament are Muslims.

That is truly a new one on me, and at variance what my Christian Arab friends have told me. I assume you are talking about the bedu down in the Negev? I am about 10 years out of date, and will admit I spent most of my time there in E. Jerusalem and the West Bank, and all of it among Christians.

I could not imagine a unit with such soldiers in it being deployed on the West Bank. The other soldiers in the unit would likely fear he will turn his gun on them.

[Robert]

I do not agree with some of the Israel state structure. I do not agree with some of the Chinese, Muslim, African, and Ukrainian state structures. I do not agree with some of the US state structures. As I said, I know they have work to do. They are not throwing people off roofs or shooting them in the streets until they mount military actions against areas that have attacked them. They have, as the US has, a philosophy of overwhelming reactions to attacks. The concept is that others will be slow to attack knowing they will be met with overwhelming force. "Speak softly and carry a big stick." I am NOT saying this is right. I am just stating what is.

Israel was given the create a Jewish nation. Right or wrong, the UN and Allies did it after world war two. The victors decide the boundaries after wars. Not saying it is right. Just saying it is. It is structured as a Jewish nation just as most of the Middle East states are structured as Muslim nations. Others have rights in Israel. I am sure it s not the same and Jewish rights, but they do have rights. In Chinese or Muslim nations others have almost no rights. We also see genicide in Africa often. It is almost always Muslims killing others.

[Nomad]

None but Jews are drafted. Are these Muslims (absolutely none serve), Christians (some actually do serve, but they keep them in their own units, and in the far south, for reasons to difficult to explain) or Druze (many do serve, but accd. To news accounts, they are not seeing the benefits. I suspect you are running into Druze.

If you saw the difference in quality of infrastructure in even Christian Arab villages in the north, versus nearby Jewish villages, you would likely be a bit surprised. The West Bank is a whole different world. What is happening seems to be a coordinated attempt to drive them out, to build yet more settlements.

I know some of the Bedouin Arab Israelis in the military are Muslim. In fact 1 of them fought off some hamas with his idf unit during Oct. 9th. I doubt the number in the military is very high however...

The Arabs in the Israeli Parliament are Muslims.

That is truly a new one on me, and at variance what my Christian Arab friends have told me. I assume you are talking about the bedu down in the Negev? I am about 10 years out of date, and will admit I spent most of my time there in E. Jerusalem and the West Bank, and all of it among Christians.

I could not imagine a unit with such soldiers in it being deployed on the West Bank. The other soldiers in the unit would likely fear he will turn his gun on them.

Yes, the Bedouin Arabs down in the Negev supposedly numbered close to 100,000 at the time of Israels beginning in 1948. Its now dwindled to about 10,000 and from what I read, most switched to identify as Palestinian today rather than Bedouin.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I do not agree with some of the Israel state structure. I do not agree with some of the Chinese, Muslim, African, and Ukrainian state structures. I do not agree with some of the US state structures. As I said, I know they have work to do. They are not throwing people off roofs or shooting them in the streets until they mount military actions against areas that have attacked them. They have, as the US has, a philosophy of overwhelming reactions to attacks. The concept is that others will be slow to attack knowing they will be met with overwhelming force. "Speak softly and carry a big stick." I am NOT saying this is right. I am just stating what is.

Israel was given the create a Jewish nation. Right or wrong, the UN and Allies did it after world war two. The victors decide the boundaries after wars. Not saying it is right. Just saying it is. It is structured as a Jewish nation just as most of the Middle East states are structured as Muslim nations. Others have rights in Israel. I am sure it s not the same and Jewish rights, but they do have rights. In Chinese or Muslim nations others have almost no rights. We also see genicide in Africa often. It is almost always Muslims killing others.

Israel advertised itself on its foundation as a secular democratic state. I well remember the JSA handing out those fliers advertising such. As such, it has a responsibility to protect its minority. If you reject that responsibility , you are effectively saying Jim Crow in the south in the early half of the last century was ok.

Only problem is, the status of non-jews in Israel today is worse than Jim Crow in the early 60s. I have seen both, Baltimore was very much "Jim Crow" when I was growing up.

[ohio jones]

The true Israel today is neither Jews nor Israelis, but believers in the Messiah, even if they are Gentiles ..."

If I were writing this, I would say "The true Israel is believers in the Messiah, whether they are Jews, Israelis, or Gentiles."
1. Deleting "today" because this is not new; it's even present in shadowy form in the Old Testament.
2. Removing the insinuation that Jews or Israelis are not part of true Israel; they can be, but on the same terms as anyone else.

"Shadowy form"? Care to elaborate?

Should I elaborate in comparison to the belief that it's clear and not shadowy, or in contrast to the position that it's not there at all?