Distinguishing Mountains from Molehills

[ken_sylvania]

So are you suggesting that a Christian who protects themself and perhaps their family and does not intend to kill an attacker but it happens is going to hell ?

I'm not in charge of consigning anyone to hell, and that simply isn't a question I ask myself. I cannot imagine what it would be like to try to live the Christian life with my primary question being whether any particular action would doom me to hell. The approach Jesus taught was to always do those things that please the Father. So if I ask the question - Would it please Jesus and His Father for me to use violence possibly causing the death of another person, to defend myself? - and then look to Jesus teachings and the New Testament and the community of the saints to find the answer, all those sources will provide a unified answer that "No, it would not be pleasing to Jesus or the heavenly Father." So then I guide my actions accordingly.

[Sudsy]

So are you suggesting that a Christian who protects themself and perhaps their family and does not intend to kill an attacker but it happens is going to hell ?

I'm not in charge of consigning anyone to hell, and that simply isn't a question I ask myself. I cannot imagine what it would be like to try to live the Christian life with my primary question being whether any particular action would doom me to hell. The approach Jesus taught was to always do those things that please the Father. So if I ask the question - Would it please Jesus and His Father for me to use violence possibly causing the death of another person, to defend myself? - and then look to Jesus teachings and the New Testament and the community of the saints to find the answer, all those sources will provide a unified answer that "No, it would not be pleasing to Jesus or the heavenly Father." So then I guide my actions accordingly.

OK but I thought this thread was to sort out what is a mountain and what is a molehill belief. I took that to infer that a montain belief was essential for salvation and a molehill belief is not. Looking back on the opening post it states 'it's about how to view and treat others who don't agree with us'.

So, how did we do ? Did we treat each other with respect and not state our views in a way that doesn't suggest other's views are stupid or something like that ? Isn't that one of the problems with these forums that we often have convictions that our view is the right one but we don't explain it in a way that is not a put down to what others believe ?

Many other Christian faith groups think differently also looking at scriptures and with their community of believers. They conclude there are situations where God would approve of defending others and would point to how the OT reads where God gives approval to killing people who do evil. Some put various qualifications on war involvement as a Christian, others just think it just falls into the category of doing good.

I think there is much to learn about all the things the scriptures say including our interaction with other believers that pleases God.

[Josh]

In summary, as Anabaptists we think most other Christian groups which excuse the sword are wrong.

[RZehr]

[Looking back on the opening post it states 'it's about how to view and treat others who don't agree with us'.

So, how did we do ? Did we treat each other with respect and not state our views in a way that doesn't suggest other's views are stupid or something like that ?

At minimum we should refrain from killing them. Is it possible to say that without suggesting that if you think killing someone is okay, you are stupid? How can I say this without insulting?

Is insulting worse than killing? I hope not.

[ken_sylvania]

So are you suggesting that a Christian who protects themself and perhaps their family and does not intend to kill an attacker but it happens is going to hell ?

I'm not in charge of consigning anyone to hell, and that simply isn't a question I ask myself. I cannot imagine what it would be like to try to live the Christian life with my primary question being whether any particular action would doom me to hell. The approach Jesus taught was to always do those things that please the Father. So if I ask the question - Would it please Jesus and His Father for me to use violence possibly causing the death of another person, to defend myself? - and then look to Jesus teachings and the New Testament and the community of the saints to find the answer, all those sources will provide a unified answer that "No, it would not be pleasing to Jesus or the heavenly Father." So then I guide my actions accordingly.

OK but I thought this thread was to sort out what is a mountain and what is a molehill belief. I took that to infer that a montain belief was essential for salvation and a molehill belief is not. Looking back on the opening post it states 'it's about how to view and treat others who don't agree with us'.

So, how did we do ? Did we treat each other with respect and not state our views in a way that doesn't suggest other's views are stupid or something like that ? Isn't that one of the problems with these forums that we often have convictions that our view is the right one but we don't explain it in a way that is not a put down to what others believe ?

Many other Christian faith groups think differently also looking at scriptures and with their community of believers. They conclude there are situations where God would approve of defending others and would point to how the OT reads where God gives approval to killing people who do evil. Some put various qualifications on war involvement as a Christian, others just think it just falls into the category of doing good.

I think there is much to learn about all the things the scriptures say including our interaction with other believers that pleases God.

It seems to me that you are suggesting that we ought to respect everyone's opinions regardless of how wrong they are. Did Jesus do that? Hardly.
Sometimes it is OK to allow a person to explain why he believes that three plus four equals five, but finally it is stupid to insist that black is white and as people of truth we ought not pretend otherwise.

“You have no enemies, you say? Alas, my friend, the boast is poor. He who has mingled in the fray of duty that the brave endure, must have made foes. If you have none, small is the work that you have done. You’ve hit no traitor on the hip. You’ve dashed no cup from perjured lip. You’ve never turned the wrong to right. You’ve been a coward in the fight.”

[Sudsy]

I'm not in charge of consigning anyone to hell, and that simply isn't a question I ask myself. I cannot imagine what it would be like to try to live the Christian life with my primary question being whether any particular action would doom me to hell. The approach Jesus taught was to always do those things that please the Father. So if I ask the question - Would it please Jesus and His Father for me to use violence possibly causing the death of another person, to defend myself? - and then look to Jesus teachings and the New Testament and the community of the saints to find the answer, all those sources will provide a unified answer that "No, it would not be pleasing to Jesus or the heavenly Father." So then I guide my actions accordingly.

OK but I thought this thread was to sort out what is a mountain and what is a molehill belief. I took that to infer that a montain belief was essential for salvation and a molehill belief is not. Looking back on the opening post it states 'it's about how to view and treat others who don't agree with us'.

So, how did we do ? Did we treat each other with respect and not state our views in a way that doesn't suggest other's views are stupid or something like that ? Isn't that one of the problems with these forums that we often have convictions that our view is the right one but we don't explain it in a way that is not a put down to what others believe ?

Many other Christian faith groups think differently also looking at scriptures and with their community of believers. They conclude there are situations where God would approve of defending others and would point to how the OT reads where God gives approval to killing people who do evil. Some put various qualifications on war involvement as a Christian, others just think it just falls into the category of doing good.

I think there is much to learn about all the things the scriptures say including our interaction with other believers that pleases God.

It seems to me that you are suggesting that we ought to respect everyone's opinions regardless of how wrong they are. Did Jesus do that? Hardly.
Sometimes it is OK to allow a person to explain why he believes that three plus four equals five, but finally it is stupid to insist that black is white and as people of truth we ought not pretend otherwise.

“You have no enemies, you say? Alas, my friend, the boast is poor. He who has mingled in the fray of duty that the brave endure, must have made foes. If you have none, small is the work that you have done. You’ve hit no traitor on the hip. You’ve dashed no cup from perjured lip. You’ve never turned the wrong to right. You’ve been a coward in the fight.”

Was Charles Mackay a Christian ? I don't see him as a good source for guidance, imo.

One does not need to agree with another to show them respect in their searching for truth. Scipture tells us how we are to speak to other believers in a gentle and courteous manner as we share what we believe to be truth. We are admonished to love, serve and be kind to one another. Another word is be gentle. As Jesus said we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Jesus also says to not call anyone a "fool" or we would be in danger of hell fire. Similar words could be “idiot,” “stupid,” or “moron”. Seems to me that Jesus is teaching that insulting language, such as name calling, racial, ethnic, and social slurs, etc. any words that demean a fellow human being is condemned by God.

[RZehr]

It is important not to cause offense or put stumbling blocks in people’s paths. But we also cannot cater to the wickeds twisted sensibilities which are based on spiritual deception.
We need to beware that there is for the unsaved, an inherent offense to the cross (Galatians 5). And that the preaching of the cross is foolish to them that perish (1 Corinthians 1).

It might take wisdom to discern whether it was my clumsy or carelessness that is causing the offense, or if it is the simple truth that he is finding offensive - remember the dog that yelps is the one who got hit. And other times dogs whine out of fear, no stones thrown.

[ken_sylvania]

Was Charles Mackay a Christian ? I don't see him as a good source for guidance, imo.

I have no idea if he was a Christian. I provided the quote because I thought it had a valid point, not because I think Mackay is a moral authority of some kind.

One does not need to agree with another to show them respect in their searching for truth. Scipture tells us how we are to speak to other believers in a gentle and courteous manner as we share what we believe to be truth. We are admonished to love, serve and be kind to one another. Another word is be gentle. As Jesus said we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Jesus also says to not call anyone a "fool" or we would be in danger of hell fire. Similar words could be “idiot,” “stupid,” or “moron”. Seems to me that Jesus is teaching that insulting language, such as name calling, racial, ethnic, and social slurs, etc. any words that demean a fellow human being is condemned by God.

I agree, except that I think it would be more accurate to say that Scripture teaches us to speak the truth in love, not to speak "what we believe to be truth."
Jesus and the New Testament writers tell us that it is possible to know the truth and to speak the truth.

[Sudsy]

Was Charles Mackay a Christian ? I don't see him as a good source for guidance, imo.

I have no idea if he was a Christian. I provided the quote because I thought it had a valid point, not because I think Mackay is a moral authority of some kind.

One does not need to agree with another to show them respect in their searching for truth. Scipture tells us how we are to speak to other believers in a gentle and courteous manner as we share what we believe to be truth. We are admonished to love, serve and be kind to one another. Another word is be gentle. As Jesus said we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Jesus also says to not call anyone a "fool" or we would be in danger of hell fire. Similar words could be “idiot,” “stupid,” or “moron”. Seems to me that Jesus is teaching that insulting language, such as name calling, racial, ethnic, and social slurs, etc. any words that demean a fellow human being is condemned by God.

I agree, except that I think it would be more accurate to say that Scripture teaches us to speak the truth in love, not to speak "what we believe to be truth."
Jesus and the New Testament writers tell us that it is possible to know the truth and to speak the truth.

This might be a good topic in itself to discuss truth and include why there are so many Christian faith groups who believe they know what is true and they speak it, yet they don't agree on this truth.