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Sudsy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:09 pm Well, got off topic but if you wish to get into this further, perhaps another thread regarding how we determine today what is still literally applicable today as it was when the NT was first written.

Discuss.

What is/is not relevant for a Christian today? For a local church today?

If it's relevant, what about applicable?? What about prescriptive?

If the text is prescriptive, that is, teaching, then it requires VERY careful consideration of the context before one should even consider "dismissing" it. (I would say, very rarely, if ever.) Doctrine should not be based on the narrative of Scripture, so that would be my first qualification, or interpretive lens. (What I mean is, where the Scripture simply records what someone did, unless there is a clear Scriptural endorsement of that activity or response, it should not be used to formulate doctrine. Possible examples would be "Paul claimed his Roman citizenship to avoid mistreatment, so we should claim our national citizenship to achieve the same end." "Although he was prevented from carrying it out by his arrest, Paul had full intention to make a sacrifice in the temple after his conversion, so we should also practice the Mosaic Sacrificial Law.")

Relevant, applicable, literally applicable and prescriptive are all different categories. I would idealize the whole of the scriptures, old and new as relevant and applicable. But there are also parts of the New Testament I regard as literally descriptive rather than prescriptive, ie. Romans 13, the prophetic portions of Revelation.

I'm gonna throw in some thoughts to help guide the discussion.

Is it relevant?: does this passage provide any meaningful insight for Christians today on it's own? Regardless of whether (or how) this passage is applied, is it relevant to us, today, in our context? Or is its relevance mostly for people in a different context (time/place)?

Is it applicable?: Is this passage meant to be directly applied by Christians/churches in this age and place (And, by implication, by all Christians/churches in all ages and places)? Regardless of how is it applied (for example, headcoverings during all of life, or just for worship gathering), is it nonetheless applicable in some way to us today?

Is it prescriptive: I'm using this as a "stronger" version of "applicable". If this is not applied today by Christians/churches, does the failure to apply it constitute "sin". Does it constitute such great sin that we are Apostate if we do not apply it?

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For discussion purposes, this topic was originally exploring all of 1 Cor 14, a good passage that contains a variety of encouragement, exhortation, description, instruction, etc. Use that passage as an example or a diving board into the topic if it is helpful to do so.

I believe ALL of the NT is applicable and prescriptive. Reason: there are absolutely no new behaviors today that did not exist in the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

I do not believe that we can pick and choose items from the NT like a smorgasbord. The NT is an integrated whole teaching that cannot be picked apart for the savory bits and leaving out the parts we do not like as though we are fussy children. I take very seriously the warning in Revelation.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

MaxPC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:36 am I believe ALL of the NT is applicable and prescriptive. Reason: there are absolutely no new behaviors today that did not exist in the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

I do not believe that we can pick and choose items from the NT like a smorgasbord. The NT is an integrated whole teaching that cannot be picked apart for the savory bits and leaving out the parts we do not like as though we are fussy children. I take very seriously the warning in Revelation.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

What about washing our face and anointing our head before we fast? How might a person apply this prescriptively other than to do just that?

MaxPC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:36 am I believe ALL of the NT is applicable and prescriptive. Reason: there are absolutely no new behaviors today that did not exist in the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

I do not believe that we can pick and choose items from the NT like a smorgasbord. The NT is an integrated whole teaching that cannot be picked apart for the savory bits and leaving out the parts we do not like as though we are fussy children. I take very seriously the warning in Revelation.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

MAX, I agree with what you're saying. However one example is the NT teachings on slavery, as if itbis acceptable. Is it acceptable today?

Also,, I have been taught that the passage in Revelation you quoted, applies to Revelation specifically. The prophetic book of Revelation. Thoughts?

Also if that passage does apply to all of OT & NT, what about the apocryphal books that were taken out of OT by protestants?

Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:43 am

MaxPC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:36 am I believe ALL of the NT is applicable and prescriptive. Reason: there are absolutely no new behaviors today that did not exist in the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

I do not believe that we can pick and choose items from the NT like a smorgasbord. The NT is an integrated whole teaching that cannot be picked apart for the savory bits and leaving out the parts we do not like as though we are fussy children. I take very seriously the warning in Revelation.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

What about washing our face and anointing our head before we fast? How might a person apply this prescriptively other than to do just that?

When I was a new believer, another newish believer and I repeatedly read the sermon on the mount at our Bible study. He wondered about that passage.

I applied it that one should maintain their normal hygiene (wash hair, shower etc) when fasting and avoid an ostentatious display of the fact one is fasting.

However, I was also open to the idea that one could indeed anoint one’s head as a sort of ritual when fasting, given the literal statement in the text, and I could find no early church fathers teaching against that.

Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:48 am MAX, I agree with what you're saying. However one example is the NT teachings on slavery, as if itbis acceptable. Is it acceptable today?

Slavery still exists today and NT teaching is very appropriate for both the enslaved and the slaveholder.

Also,, I have been taught that the passage in Revelation you quoted, applies to Revelation specifically. The prophetic book of Revelation. Thoughts?

Also if that passage does apply to all of OT & NT, what about the apocryphal books that were taken out of OT by protestants?

Myself, and the majority of other Anabaptists, treat the apocrypha as part of the OT on basically equal footing. Early Anabaptists quoted from it heavily and it’s also in the MM.

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:00 am

Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:48 am MAX, I agree with what you're saying. However one example is the NT teachings on slavery, as if itbis acceptable. Is it acceptable today?

Slavery still exists today and NT teaching is very appropriate for both the enslaved and the slaveholder.

Also,, I have been taught that the passage in Revelation you quoted, applies to Revelation specifically. The prophetic book of Revelation. Thoughts?

Also if that passage does apply to all of OT & NT, what about the apocryphal books that were taken out of OT by protestants?

Myself, and the majority of other Anabaptists, treat the apocrypha as part of the OT on basically equal footing. Early Anabaptists quoted from it heavily and it’s also in the MM.

Thank you. Do they believe that passage in Revelation Max quoted pertains specifically to Revelation, or the entire Bible? (BTW, I truly bieve Christians who do not read apocryphal books are really missing out!)