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A question for opinions - for only the last 100 or so years Christ followers have had their own Bibles to study and use for direction in living the Christian life.

So, is it possible that having our own Bibles we are not as Spirit guided in our ways of following Jesus as those who never had a Bible for the past 1900 or more years ?

It seems to me that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and that since we now have all kinds of written versions of the Bible to study in the hands of most every Christian, that the understandings of Christian truth and practise is more varied today than it has ever been in the NT era.

Thoughts, anyone ?

Interesting question to ponder for a Sunday afternoon, Sudsy. I personally feel that the one major thing running interference with being able to hear the Holy Spirit is electronic distraction: telly, computers and internet capable mobile phones. Of course, YMMV.

Sudsy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:26 pm A question for opinions - for only the last 100 or so years Christ followers have had their own Bibles to study and use for direction in living the Christian life.

So, is it possible that having our own Bibles we are not as Spirit guided in our ways of following Jesus as those who never had a Bible for the past 1900 or more years ?

It seems to me that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and that since we now have all kinds of written versions of the Bible to study in the hands of most every Christian, that the understandings of Christian truth and practise is more varied today than it has ever been in the NT era.

Thoughts, anyone ?

Before the Scriptures were readily available the common person was really quite ignorant about Christian truth. There is a sense in which a common ignorance will seem somewhat more similar compared with varying levels of understanding coupled with varying degrees of dedication to understanding Truth vs attempting, consciously or subconsciously, to make Truth fit our desires.

i wrote my thoughts related to this recently.
my view is there was an ideal time for scriptures following the printing press, when many hungered to own the most precious book, the Holy Bible. it was valued, often the only book in a household, many learned to read with it, passages were interwoven in school texts, it was “Communications Central” for a good part of the world, and expanding.

today, there is so much printed material, AND the tech world, DISTRACTIONS galore!
still, the Bible remains on Best Seller lists, in nearly every language in the world.

with the printed book or without it, Light is a mysterious gift of the Holy Spirit.
as i understand scriptures to say.

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:20 pm Others present are more knoowledgeable, but, my understanding is, although we love scriptures/the Holy Bible, even with these gifts, they are nothing without the blessing of the Holy Spirit. The Bible will escape readers, confound readers, stupefy and anger, without the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

For believers, we know our faith is not of our own doing. We are humbled with gratitude.

For myself, my own experience, although i WANTED to understand and accept the Bible, i SENSED it had answers for me, until i was in my early 40’s, they puzzled me. i could not understand. i wanted to. i tried. “nothing,” really.

Then, that changed. i don’t recall a moment or day. But in one period of my life, when our children were still young, a change.
What i could not see before began to come to Life on the pages. The pages seemed to glow with Light. My eyes were open, and my heart filled with peace and joy. It was kind of euphoric (no drugs). It lasted for years. The memories are with me.

i don’t have that special level of euphoria (for lack of better word) but faith remains, trust. i was changed, i am changed.
At this time i was baptised, it is a joyful memory. My parents did not believe in infant baptism, not always an easy path.

If you pray (i recommend it) pray for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes, to guide your words and actions all thru your days.
Your prayers will not go unheard.

Human reasoning, all of science+wisdom, are not enough. “For we see through a glass darkly,” AT ALL TIMES, no matter who we are. i specially appreciate scientists, post-doctorates, others with advanced degrees and obvious high intellect, who know so much, yet remain humble, saying the more they know, the more they believe in God, the Creator. “The more you know, the more you realize you don’t know.” i grew up on the doostep of a large state university, i’ve enjoyed many highly educated people. Those who have been blessed by the Holy Spirit are remarkable, specially gifted. Humble believers. Some like these are present on this forum.
i’m not convinced you know which room you’re in. i pray you are one day changed. it won’t be all your own doing.
or on your own time frame. pray for the blessing. your logic is not sufficient.

If by some awful destiny Bibles suddenly and completely disappeared, the Holy Spirit would provide. Truth will not be defeated.

Interesting how you point out “Jesus wrote nothing” (that is known or remains). There is no accident or oversight. Pray for faith.
Submit to the Holy Spirit, pray for your eyes to see.

Sudsy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:26 pm A question for opinions - for only the last 100 or so years Christ followers have had their own Bibles to study and use for direction in living the Christian life.

So, is it possible that having our own Bibles we are not as Spirit guided in our ways of following Jesus as those who never had a Bible for the past 1900 or more years ?

It seems to me that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and that since we now have all kinds of written versions of the Bible to study in the hands of most every Christian, that the understandings of Christian truth and practise is more varied today than it has ever been in the NT era.

Thoughts, anyone ?

When a fair percentage of the people were illiterate (whether printed Scriptures were available and affordable or not) there was a much stronger dependence on instruction from clergy. So perhaps deviations from truth were done more as large groups of people, as they would all tend to follow whatever their spiritual leader said. Perhaps there is not a much greater degree of personal responsibility, because of the ready availability of printed Scripture. (A subsistence level life-style also allows much less time or opportunity to study, whether the person is literate and owns a copy of Scripture or not, or has access to a teacher who speaks the truth.)

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:44 pm

Sudsy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:26 pm A question for opinions - for only the last 100 or so years Christ followers have had their own Bibles to study and use for direction in living the Christian life.

So, is it possible that having our own Bibles we are not as Spirit guided in our ways of following Jesus as those who never had a Bible for the past 1900 or more years ?

It seems to me that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and that since we now have all kinds of written versions of the Bible to study in the hands of most every Christian, that the understandings of Christian truth and practise is more varied today than it has ever been in the NT era.

Thoughts, anyone ?

Before the Scriptures were readily available the common person was really quite ignorant about Christian truth. There is a sense in which a common ignorance will seem somewhat more similar compared with varying levels of understanding coupled with varying degrees of dedication to understanding Truth vs attempting, consciously or subconsciously, to make Truth fit our desires.

I can't argue with this. Mainly because my old brain can't comprehend what this means. Do you have perhaps another way of explaining this and how the Holy Spirit is involved in guiding us to truth ?

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:11 pm i wrote my thoughts related to this recently.
my view is there was an ideal time for scriptures following the printing press, when many hungered to own the most precious book, the Holy Bible. it was valued, often the only book in a household, many learned to read with it, passages were interwoven in school texts, it was “Communications Central” for a good part of the world, and expanding.

today, there is so much printed material, AND the tech world, DISTRACTIONS galore!
still, the Bible remains on Best Seller lists, in nearly every language in the world.

with the printed book or without it, Light is a mysterious gift of the Holy Spirit.
as i understand scriptures to say.

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:20 pm Others present are more knoowledgeable, but, my understanding is, although we love scriptures/the Holy Bible, even with these gifts, they are nothing without the blessing of the Holy Spirit. The Bible will escape readers, confound readers, stupefy and anger, without the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

For believers, we know our faith is not of our own doing. We are humbled with gratitude.

For myself, my own experience, although i WANTED to understand and accept the Bible, i SENSED it had answers for me, until i was in my early 40’s, they puzzled me. i could not understand. i wanted to. i tried. “nothing,” really.

Then, that changed. i don’t recall a moment or day. But in one period of my life, when our children were still young, a change.
What i could not see before began to come to Life on the pages. The pages seemed to glow with Light. My eyes were open, and my heart filled with peace and joy. It was kind of euphoric (no drugs). It lasted for years. The memories are with me.

i don’t have that special level of euphoria (for lack of better word) but faith remains, trust. i was changed, i am changed.
At this time i was baptised, it is a joyful memory. My parents did not believe in infant baptism, not always an easy path.

If you pray (i recommend it) pray for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes, to guide your words and actions all thru your days.
Your prayers will not go unheard.

Human reasoning, all of science+wisdom, are not enough. “For we see through a glass darkly,” AT ALL TIMES, no matter who we are. i specially appreciate scientists, post-doctorates, others with advanced degrees and obvious high intellect, who know so much, yet remain humble, saying the more they know, the more they believe in God, the Creator. “The more you know, the more you realize you don’t know.” i grew up on the doostep of a large state university, i’ve enjoyed many highly educated people. Those who have been blessed by the Holy Spirit are remarkable, specially gifted. Humble believers. Some like these are present on this forum.
i’m not convinced you know which room you’re in. i pray you are one day changed. it won’t be all your own doing.
or on your own time frame. pray for the blessing. your logic is not sufficient.

If by some awful destiny Bibles suddenly and completely disappeared, the Holy Spirit would provide. Truth will not be defeated.

Interesting how you point out “Jesus wrote nothing” (that is known or remains). There is no accident or oversight. Pray for faith.
Submit to the Holy Spirit, pray for your eyes to see.

Thanks for the personal testimony and your thoughts.

What I underlined in your post - Is it possible that although Bibles have been made the most available book in the world that the vast majority who have one or more, have never read it cover to cover one time ? And even amongst some Christians I know, if they didn't have their own Bible(s), they still go by what the preacher they prefer has to say about what the Bible is saying. Sometimes I think a very charismatic (small 'c') preacher can lead many to trust in their teachings and perhaps logical explanations of scriptures and the Holy Spirit is completely left out as far as guidance to the preacher and guidance received by the hearer. In other words, if we are not Holy Spirit sensitive to His guidance we can be mislead into all kinds of things about God that are not true and/or not the way that we should live.

Neto wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:29 am

Sudsy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:26 pm A question for opinions - for only the last 100 or so years Christ followers have had their own Bibles to study and use for direction in living the Christian life.

So, is it possible that having our own Bibles we are not as Spirit guided in our ways of following Jesus as those who never had a Bible for the past 1900 or more years ?

It seems to me that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and that since we now have all kinds of written versions of the Bible to study in the hands of most every Christian, that the understandings of Christian truth and practise is more varied today than it has ever been in the NT era.

Thoughts, anyone ?

When a fair percentage of the people were illiterate (whether printed Scriptures were available and affordable or not) there was a much stronger dependence on instruction from clergy. So perhaps deviations from truth were done more as large groups of people, as they would all tend to follow whatever their spiritual leader said. Perhaps there is not a much greater degree of personal responsibility, because of the ready availability of printed Scripture. (A subsistence level life-style also allows much less time or opportunity to study, whether the person is literate and owns a copy of Scripture or not, or has access to a teacher who speaks the truth.)

I believe I read, and perhaps it still exists, that prior to the mass printing of Bibles and even afterwards, people were discouraged from reading Bibles and just trust the clergy. As if without a proper education in some Bible college of sorts, one could not really know how to live out the Christian life. God gave the Church teachers and they had responsibility for what they taught being lead of the Holy Spirit or not. However, for the hearer I believe we still need discernment to know whether or not what is taught is from the Holy Spirit or just man's own views. The teacher will be judged on what they teach, which is quite a serious matter, but we, in the pews still have responsibility to see if our spirit and the Holy Spirit is in agreement with any teaching, right ?

I believe if we focus on walking hand in hand, so to speak, with the Holy Spirit and learn to know His voice over all other voices, this is extremely important, especially today when we have access to so many other voices.

Thoughts ?

Sudsy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:16 am

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:44 pm

Sudsy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:26 pm A question for opinions - for only the last 100 or so years Christ followers have had their own Bibles to study and use for direction in living the Christian life.

So, is it possible that having our own Bibles we are not as Spirit guided in our ways of following Jesus as those who never had a Bible for the past 1900 or more years ?

It seems to me that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and that since we now have all kinds of written versions of the Bible to study in the hands of most every Christian, that the understandings of Christian truth and practise is more varied today than it has ever been in the NT era.

Thoughts, anyone ?

Before the Scriptures were readily available the common person was really quite ignorant about Christian truth. There is a sense in which a common ignorance will seem somewhat more similar compared with varying levels of understanding coupled with varying degrees of dedication to understanding Truth vs attempting, consciously or subconsciously, to make Truth fit our desires.

I can't argue with this. Mainly because my old brain can't comprehend what this means. Do you have perhaps another way of explaining this and how the Holy Spirit is involved in guiding us to truth ?

I will try.
It seemed you were saying that understanding of Christian truth and practice is more varied now than it was before Bibles were readily available.
I believe you are suggesting it might be because previously believers relied more on the Holy Spirit to guide them into truth.
I believe most professing Christians were quite ignorant of truth.
I believe that a significant factor in the variety of understandings about core truth today is a tendency to try to make the truth fit us instead of making ourselves fit the truth.

Sudsy:
Thanks for the personal testimony and your thoughts.

1) What I underlined in your post - Is it possible that although Bibles have been made the most available book in the world that the vast majority who have one or more, have never read it cover to cover one time ?

2) And even amongst some Christians I know, if they didn't have their own Bible(s), they still go by what the preacher they prefer has to say about what the Bible is saying.

3) Sometimes I think a very charismatic (small 'c') preacher can lead many to trust in their teachings and perhaps logical explanations of scriptures and the Holy Spirit is completely left out as far as guidance to the preacher and guidance received by the hearer.

4) In other words, if we are not Holy Spirit sensitive to His guidance we can be mislead into all kinds of things about God that are not true and/or not the way that we should live.

Because of the mysterious+ethereal nature of the Holy Spirit, it’s very difficult to speak of.
Add to that both imperfect human understanding, and, intentional evil, it can seem impossible to talk about. Very understandable.
In human logic it’s so easily debunked, as tho it’s nothing (or worse than nothing). It takes courage to try to glimpse the HS.
A glimpse is almost too much. John 16:12 “ 12 I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it.”

The Holy Spirit requires caution and respect.
Respect because Jesus Christ, in His own words, promised believers would both need and have the Holy Spirit.
It can’t be explained. It can’t be denied. (Thomas the Apostle, also known as Didymus, represents so many of us.)

(i miss Wayne’s input on this, esp how he believed in the brotherhood discernment aspect for Anabaptists.)

1) i agree, Bibles are present in great numbers, yet often go unread.
That was a joy i found on MD, reading from folks who had (literally) read the Bible. i sort of take it for granted now, but, to begin, altho i’d been a devoted and active church member for years, my Bible study was much on my own, at night, when the family slept. It was exciting, and also peace-giving. Life was busy with lots of stress, scriptures would both excite me and calm me so i could wake refreshed to meet the next busy, demanding day. In my life, excitement+calm do not typically go hand-in-hand.

However, there is another part to this. i couldn’t always just pick up a Bible to read and understand. i tried. i was a pretty good reader, not great. slow. but. i was baffled that “i knew” some were finding great things in scriptures i could not, no matter how i tried. It was only eventually, and not of any of my own doing, i was able to begin to find Life in those written words.

i’ve attributed it to a blessing of the Holy Spirit, i have no other explanation. His time, His will, not my own.
i understand the frustration of those who read scriptures, find nothing, walk away.

also, i believe the Holy Spirit guides+protects even BEFORE we become believers and know of Him, accept Him.
when i think of the many evils i could have fallen into .. o.gosh. so, i didn’t understand much, but i was being led to Truth ..
my granddaughter is living in a world epicenter for evil, yet, somehow, she is protected+led .. the Holy Spirit cannot be contained, it can’t be stopped, many are protected+led without knowing. It cannot be explained. It cannot be denied.

2) certainly, charismatic leaders can do damage.
to begin, the Catholic Church was militant about wanting control of scriptures. (an understatement) There just isn’t any “sure thing” when it comes to earthly human systems. We have them, we must have them. Scriptures use real men living real earthly lives to describe how to balance navigation of our earthly days while keeping God at center. With our parents, spouses, children, work, church, leaders; the Apostles, even Mary, were all people like us, living on earth, yet touched by Truth, THEN knowing more.

We are called to faith. Faith that doesn’t “make sense.” We fight it tooth+nail. Just like dear Thomas.

3) yes.

4) amen.