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GaryK wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:59 pm My point is that it's next to impossible to insert a KOG perspective into the Russia-Ukraine war or any other political matter because attempting to do so is an attempt to bring together two forces (the KOG and the kingdom of the world) that cannot merge.

To me, the most interesting thing that is currently happening on MennoNet is a struggle to figure out how to address things from a Kingdom of God perspective. And I welcome Gary's contribution to this. I would like to see this thread be a safe place for people to offer different perspectives on this question - can the Kingdom of God speak to political matters? If so, how, and what safeguards do we need?

I have been thinking about what Gary wrote, and I disagree for the following reason: The Kingdom of God cannot merge with sin, but it can certainly speak to the issue of sin. The Kingdom of God cannot wage war, but it can certainly speak on the subject of the atrocities of warfare. Sure, the Kingdom of God cannot merge with worldly politics - but does that mean it cannot speak to worldly politics? If the Kingdom of God cannot speak to these things ... what CAN it speak to?

But I think we need a level of caution when we approach these things. At the very least, we should not pass on the latest political talking point without discernment. Jude comes to mind - we can easily pass on the talking points of scoffers and divide the Kingdom of God:

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

What guidelines can be helpful here?

Maybe I will come across sounding like Sudsy, but that's OK with me. I'll say - we need to listen to the Holy Spirit.

This current war going on in Ukraine has pulled at me like nothing I know for many years. No, I have never been there, but it was home to my people for well over 100 years - an area of Ukraine now under the tread of the tanks belonging to a foreign army, and one pertaining to the same people group who over-ran my people basically 100 years ago. But I do have relatives on both sides of that international "conflict", so I am troubled, perhaps mostly because of the suffering it brings to mind, and the past political movements which brought about that suffering, unnecessarily. The current suffering is also unnecessary, and on both side of this. But I have felt a strong pull from the Spirit of God, away from the political side of this, something that I feel is nearly sucking me in.

So I think that while some people can speak into the situation, I feel in some ways too close to it. I need, more than ever, to write in a separate file, and then let it sit & "perk" a while before hitting the Submit button. So I do think that it may well vary as to how one person can speak into situations like this out of the Kingdom of Our Blessed King, and others maybe shouldn't, or cannot.

Well, I don't think that the question (Can the Kingdom of God speak ...) is well-chosen.
I at least am neither the "king" nor its messenger, but rather a humble citizen of the kingdom. (I have a definite horror against "prophetical speech" and prefer "brotherly admonition " as an alternative. Speaking as one citizen to another possible citizen.)

Nevertheless I have an aspect which may (or may not) be helpful here. I did not "study" war, but being a German I have of course heard and read masses of stories about WW2. And my aspect is that in every war there are undercurrents of growing understanding and consensus-forming, if only we look for them. And we can spread, promote and deepen those undercurrents.

I distinguish four ways:
a) the "brothers in arms" feeling. It's always the media people who tell us that the "people on the other side" are completely different from us. The common soldier gets used to see his opposite soldier not as essentially different, but just as opposite (just as it would be in a saloon brawl).
b) the mutual respect of the generals. They see war as a craft and the opposite general as a more or less skilled craftsman. When after WW2 a lot of German generals were imprisoned, there was an astonishing number of American generals who pleaded for their release.
c) "fraternization" of the occupant soldier with the occupied - an eternal problem for the army. Partly simply an effect of a human tendency to be nice. Partly a matter of "boy without girl" loves "girl without boys". German boys with French or Norvegian girls - German girls with American boys - we know it from both sides.
d) there's the interesting case of people who had to research the enemy's ideology until they found a point in this ideology. This has happened sometimes with Eastern European economists who studied Western economics. But my pet case is a German educationalist who was paid by the Nazi state for to edit an international journal, mostly for to propagate and defend their educational values before an international public. In this business, he had to study the American approach - until he came to see an essential point in it which was overlooked in Germany. (His book about "partnership" was one of the primal books for after-war political education.)

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:55 pm Sure, the Kingdom of God cannot merge with worldly politics...

You say you disagree with my statement but what you wrote above is what I've been saying all along. Now the question is, should those within the KOG merge with worldly politics? If one truly believes what you wrote above, I don't see how doing so is part of the KOG.

The KOG approaches the human problem from a different perspective than worldly politics. It speaks to a lot of the same problems worldly politics tries to solve but does not merge with the world to solve them. To do so is to get involved in a "sides" battle. Politics and world affairs are largely based on the concept of differing sides. The KOG calls people from out of that concept into the concept of a united KOG.

The Kingdom of God should overcome the Kingdoms of this world. They are in competition/conflict.

GaryK wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:54 am

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:55 pm Sure, the Kingdom of God cannot merge with worldly politics...

You say you disagree with my statement but what you wrote above is what I've been saying all along. Now the question is, should those within the KOG merge with worldly politics? If one truly believes what you wrote above, I don't see how doing so is part of the KOG.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with what you say here.

GaryK wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:54 amThe KOG approaches the human problem from a different perspective than worldly politics. It speaks to a lot of the same problems worldly politics tries to solve but does not merge with the world to solve them. To do so is to get involved in a "sides" battle. Politics and world affairs are largely based on the concept of differing sides. The KOG calls people from out of that concept into the concept of a united KOG.

And I agree with this too. As an obvious example, I cannot fight war or encourage others to do so. But to me, at least, there's a lot more we should wrestle with about how we talk about issues in the world around us as the Kingdom of God. I don't think I have it figured out yet. I suspect I am not alone. It seems like an important thing to wrestle with.

Jesus spoke to individuals; he didn’t give speeches at political conventions. The gospel should be the same for us.

When I see someone who consistently repeats mainstream political messaging and then claims it’s what Jesus would say, I get suspicious. And that is the majority of the chatter here on MN.

There were words in Greek for ideas like "social improvement club" or "philosophy", but Jesus chose words that directly conflicted with the authorities. King, Kingdom, and gospel had established political meanings for the Hebrew and Roman worlds. Jesus was born a political threat, leading the impostor king to attempt his assassination. How can his church fail to be in conflict with power and if it isn't, why not? I understand being citizens and ambassadors of a new kingdom, what I struggle with is concepts like dual citizenship, when did we come to believe translation into the kingdom of light (KJV terminology) leaves one foot loyal to earthly kingdoms.
I would ask how the church be the church if it is silent.

barnhart wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:35 pm There were words in Greek for ideas like "social improvement club" or "philosophy", but Jesus chose words that directly conflicted with the authorities. King, Kingdom, and gospel had established political meanings for the Hebrew and Roman worlds. Jesus was born a political threat, leading the impostor king to attempt his assassination. How can his church fail to be in conflict with power and if it isn't, why not? I understand being citizens and ambassadors of a new kingdom, what I struggle with is concepts like dual citizenship, when did we come to believe translation into the kingdom of light (KJV terminology) leaves one foot loyal to earthly kingdoms.
I would ask how the church be the church if it is silent.

Or, more saliently, how the church can be the church when it is quite vocal about being allied with a specific earthly kingdom.

The most rotten example, of course, being the alliance of the church with Rome, the alliance of the church with Constantinople, and eventually resultant wars and conflicts arising out of that.

barnhart wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:35 pm There were words in Greek for ideas like "social improvement club" or "philosophy", but Jesus chose words that directly conflicted with the authorities. King, Kingdom, and gospel had established political meanings for the Hebrew and Roman worlds. Jesus was born a political threat, leading the impostor king to attempt his assassination. How can his church fail to be in conflict with power and if it isn't, why not? I understand being citizens and ambassadors of a new kingdom, what I struggle with is concepts like dual citizenship, when did we come to believe translation into the kingdom of light (KJV terminology) leaves one foot loyal to earthly kingdoms.
I would ask how the church be the church if it is silent.

If earthly kingdoms are not threatened at all by "our Kingdom of God' and our "Kingdom Citizenship/Allegiance," perhaps we ought to ask what sort of Kingdom really are we?