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With war at hand, these religious battles will recede to the background for the time being. However, people on both sides are turning to their faith. Images of Ukrainians praying throughout the country were posted on Twitter on Wednesday (Feb. 23) when the attack started. Other, non-Orthodox Christians noted how Christians on both sides are fighting: “Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” while “Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia.”

The bankrupt morality of the kingdom s of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.

SMH

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:23 am

With war at hand, these religious battles will recede to the background for the time being. However, people on both sides are turning to their faith. Images of Ukrainians praying throughout the country were posted on Twitter on Wednesday (Feb. 23) when the attack started. Other, non-Orthodox Christians noted how Christians on both sides are fighting: “Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” while “Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia.”

The bankrupt morality of the kingdom s of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.

SMH

This is yet another reason why there is no Just war since God gave Israel marching orders.

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:23 am

With war at hand, these religious battles will recede to the background for the time being. However, people on both sides are turning to their faith. Images of Ukrainians praying throughout the country were posted on Twitter on Wednesday (Feb. 23) when the attack started. Other, non-Orthodox Christians noted how Christians on both sides are fighting: “Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” while “Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia.”

The bankrupt morality of the kingdom s of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.

SMH

Yes, we have seen this occuring throughout the NT era that professing Christians for various reasons through religious wars, seiges, massacres, rebellions, crusades or acts of terrorism have engaged in killing other professing Christians. The word 'Christian', once referred to as those 'followers of the way' of Jesus did not take long to reflect ways not of Jesus.

Someday there will be a true separation of the sheep from the goats regardless of what we call ourselves now. So, important to not take our eyes off Jesus and be those true sheep that know His voice and follow Him.

It is also easy to get caught up in judging who are His sheep and who are not which we see in many of these killings. Killing one another with words is also what Jesus recognized as murder. Things like calling anyone Jesus came to save, an 'idiot' or 'fool' or even getting unjustly being angry with someone Jesus used strong language about. When do I cross this line ?

Some have tried to distinguish professing Christians from possessing Christians. In other words, those who have the Holy Spirit living within them (are born of the Spirit or 'born again') from those who have a different understanding on what it means to qualify as being a Christian. I tend to agree with this distinction yet do not believe I have reached a point of being a perfect 'fruit inspector' to make this call. Jesus might be far more merciful than me on this or vice versa.

And then there are those on judgment day that will argue with Jesus that they were His followers and He will say He never knew them. Were these folks just pretenders to be His and never really knew Him personally ? Did they think the miracles like casting out demons in Jesus name, proved they were Christians ? Could some who are living today in strict religious ways, which they believe to be a Christian way, also come to find out they were unsaved ? Or perhaps, these already know in their heart they don't have a relationship with God but know how to fool others ? Jesus said the criteria to be saved is 'those who do the will of the Father' Matthew 7:21-23. How do we understand what this includes ?

Sorry, I guess I went from the question of being a true Christian and being involved in killing other Christians to who is a real Christian that in the end will be saved. Will any professing Christian who has killed another person be saved at judgment day ? I, personally, believe there will be more to it than this. We do sin and sometimes due to mis-understandings regarding life itself such as when is murder, unforgiveable murder and at what stage of life ?

Anyway, interesting topic. As Jesus said in the above text not everyone that calls Jesus 'Lord' truly knows Him and will be saved. It is a good reminder to be sure we have a saving faith and not mis-lead by some form of 'Christian religious lifestyle'.

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:23 am

With war at hand, these religious battles will recede to the background for the time being. However, people on both sides are turning to their faith. Images of Ukrainians praying throughout the country were posted on Twitter on Wednesday (Feb. 23) when the attack started. Other, non-Orthodox Christians noted how Christians on both sides are fighting: “Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” while “Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia.”

The bankrupt morality of the kingdoms of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.

Just like the Civil War here, where pastors on both sides blessed their troops and assured them that God was on their side.

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:56 am This is yet another reason why there is no Just war since God gave Israel marching orders.

I think Just War Theory is most useful if you turn it around - what is our role as Christians? And which injustices should we speak out against? At the very least, I think we should not speak in a way that seems to support the aggressor in a particularly unjust war.

The US Catholic Conference said: "Force may be used only to correct a grave, public evil, i.e., aggression or massive violation of the basic human rights of whole populations." That's one part of Just War theory. As Mennonites, we believe that Christians should not participate in war even then, our role is to help the refugees, pray, find ways to reach out and help and heal.

Maybe we should avoid taking sides at all, saying that is not our role. But if we do, I don't think we should condemn both Nazi Germany and the countries it invaded in the same way. Siding with victims often does involve speaking out against injustice. Does a state have Romans 13 authority to protect itself against military invasion? I don't think the New Testament is entirely clear about that. The Old Testament does seem clear. I find it harder to denounce Czechoslovakia for trying to defend itself against Nazi Germany. It's easy for me to be in grief about the whole thing and simply pray for the victims. It's also easy for me to denounce the injustice of Nazi Germany. I am likely to be silent about those in Czechoslovakia who laid down their lives to defend their country against that aggression.

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:23 am

With war at hand, these religious battles will recede to the background for the time being. However, people on both sides are turning to their faith. Images of Ukrainians praying throughout the country were posted on Twitter on Wednesday (Feb. 23) when the attack started. Other, non-Orthodox Christians noted how Christians on both sides are fighting: “Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” while “Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia.”

The bankrupt morality of the kingdom s of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.
SMH

The source for your quote?
Can there be surprise that the state church supports the state?

The thing about prayers is, they are answered. Often with unexpected, even unwanted answers.
There are more than a few former military on/reading this forum. Some drafted, not by choice; some may have not yet experienced conversion.

Praying for God’s will may be the best of prayers.

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:40 am

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:23 am

With war at hand, these religious battles will recede to the background for the time being. However, people on both sides are turning to their faith. Images of Ukrainians praying throughout the country were posted on Twitter on Wednesday (Feb. 23) when the attack started. Other, non-Orthodox Christians noted how Christians on both sides are fighting: “Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” while “Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia.”

The bankrupt morality of the kingdom s of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.
SMH

The source for your quote?
Can there be surprise that the state church supports the state?

The thing about prayers is, they are answered. Often with unexpected, even unwanted answers.
There are more than a few former military on/reading this forum. Some drafted, not by choice; some may have not yet experienced conversion.

Praying for God’s will may be the best of prayers.

https://religionnews.com/2022/02/24/put ... f-ukraine/

We know what God's will is. It is that his Kingdom would come on earth as in heaven and that all would be conformed into the image of his son Jesus, and by that all would be saved and have more abundant lives. We know therefore God is against this war that is looking to expand and/or hold the kingdoms of this world and their power. Also therefore, the idea of invoking Jesus, that is the perfect revelation of God, to bless those who partake in antiChrist actions is blasphemy and Christian nationalistic idolatry.

And here:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/evan ... um=twitter

“Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” he said. “The Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia, so it’s a tragic scene where two brother faiths, Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox, have completely sided on the national goals of their one country.”

“They are not acting like they are citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, first and foremost, but rather, they represent nationalism. And that’s not who we are as Christians,” he lamented. “Our ultimate loyalty is to Christ and His Kingdom rather than the nationality of the land we happen to find ourselves in. And that’s not something that the Orthodox Church is not able to accommodate. … It’s a tragedy that that does not happen.”

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:55 am

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:40 am

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:23 am The bankrupt morality of the kingdom s of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.
SMH

The source for your quote?
Can there be surprise that the state church supports the state?

The thing about prayers is, they are answered. Often with unexpected, even unwanted answers.
There are more than a few former military on/reading this forum. Some drafted, not by choice; some may have not yet experienced conversion.

Praying for God’s will may be the best of prayers.

https://religionnews.com/2022/02/24/put ... f-ukraine/

We know what God's will is. It is that his Kingdom would come on earth as in heaven and that all would be conformed into the image of his son Jesus, and by that all would be saved and have more abundant lives. We know therefore God is against this war that is looking to expand and/or hold the kingdoms of this world and their power. Also therefore, the idea of invoking Jesus, that is the perfect revelation of God, to bless those who partake in antiChrist actions is blasphemy and Christian nationalistic idolatry.

And here:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/evan ... um=twitter

“Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” he said. “The Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia, so it’s a tragic scene where two brother faiths, Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox, have completely sided on the national goals of their one country.”

“They are not acting like they are citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, first and foremost, but rather, they represent nationalism. And that’s not who we are as Christians,” he lamented. “Our ultimate loyalty is to Christ and His Kingdom rather than the nationality of the land we happen to find ourselves in. And that’s not something that the Orthodox Church is not able to accommodate. … It’s a tragedy that that does not happen.”

Thank you.

i believe all prayers are answered - even wrong prayers. they are answered with Truth.

i know i have sometimes prayed for wrong things. then i was corrected. i count on it. i pray for it.
it’s entirely possible to be a sincere believer - AND BE WRONG.

on a small scale or on the world’s scale, there is significance in acknowledging God exists, and is necessary.
i’m not sure i ever imagined a world in which so many are ignorant and/or denying of God. here we are.

God takes care of wrong prayers.
while praying, praying for His wisdom to guide and His mercy to correct, has been a life lesson for me.

you know, it’s really upsetting to realize you have prayed for some wrong thing. it happens.
the Holy Spirit determines when eyes open.

Prayers for God’s will. No matter what others pray.

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:23 amThe bankrupt morality of the kingdom s of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.

SMH

Indeed. No more brother wars.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:11 amMaybe we should avoid taking sides at all, saying that is not our role. But if we do, I don't think we should condemn both Nazi Germany and the countries it invaded in the same way. Siding with victims often does involve speaking out against injustice. Does a state have Romans 13 authority to protect itself against military invasion? I don't think the New Testament is entirely clear about that. The Old Testament does seem clear. I find it harder to denounce Czechoslovakia for trying to defend itself against Nazi Germany. It's easy for me to be in grief about the whole thing and simply pray for the victims. It's also easy for me to denounce the injustice of Nazi Germany. I am likely to be silent about those in Czechoslovakia who laid down their lives to defend their country against that aggression.

And that's why Christians shouldn't get involved in choosing who is "right". Is it right or wrong to defend one's self against Nazis? Well, Russia is doing exactly that in Donetsk and Luhansk. To quote from Wikipedia:

Azov Special Operations Detachment (Ukrainian: Окремий загін спеціального призначення «Азов», romanized: Okremyi zahin spetsialnoho pryznachennia "Azov"), often known as Azov Detachment, Azov Regiment (Ukrainian: Полк Азов, romanized: Polk Azov), or Azov Battalion (until September 2014), is a right-wing extremist and neo-Nazi Ukrainian National Guard unit, based in Mariupol, in the Azov Sea coastal region. It saw its first combat experience recapturing Mariupol from pro-Russian separatists forces in June 2014.[4] Azov initially formed as a volunteer militia on 5 May 2014 during the Ukrainian crisis. On 12 November 2014, Azov was incorporated into the National Guard of Ukraine, and since then all members are contract soldiers serving in the National Guard of Ukraine.

Do we, as Christians, support denazification? Or do we actually stand up and support a government whose special forces wing are literal neo-Nazis?

Or do we as Christians realise we should do neither?

Speaking of the will of God and praying in His will, I believe God wills in different ways.

1) God’s Sovereign Will - what God chooses and orders in all that has and will ever take place (i.e. Ephesians 1:11; Acts 4:28).
2) God’s Moral Will - what God communicates through His standard for right and wrong based on His character (i.e. Exodus 20:1-17).
3) God’s Permissive Will - due to sin entering the world, God allows things to take place that he would not allow in a sin free world (i.e. Acts 14:16).

God uses these in accomplishing his ultimate purposes.

We can pray for things that are not according to God's will and 1 John 5:14 says those prayers He does not hear. In this case, it seems to me these are things we already know better than to ask for but we ask for them anyway.

1 John 5:14 AMP -

This is the [remarkable degree of] confidence which we [as believers are entitled to] have before Him: that if we ask anything according to His will, [that is, consistent with His plan and purpose] He hears us.

Some things may seem obvious to me to be God's will but I may not see the 'big picture' in what God is doing. So simply praying 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven', to me, means I will accept what God is allowing to happen (as He can change anything, anytime) in both the world and in my life.

But like Paul, I may pray more than once about something (Paul's thorn) before I get an answer that, as it was for Paul, God's grace is sufficient for whatever we are praying to be changed. Paul, once He got that answer, He not only humbly accepted his circumstance (whatever it was) but took joy in it knowing God was working things out for the good in Paul's life.

Why were 6 million Jews slaughtered in the last world war ? I don't doubt many prayers were made for God to intervene. But God allowed it. What was God up to ? I don't think any of us knows for sure.

Would love to hear how others understand praying according to God's will.