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What do different denominations actually say about this? Surely by now various denominations have come out with opinions and guidance. Or they soon will be if "religious exemptions" are the only allowable non-medical exemption to getting the vaccine as will be the case in various states and for Federal jobs.

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:52 pm What do different denominations actually say about this? Surely by now various denominations have come out with opinions and guidance. Or they soon will be if "religious exemptions" are the only allowable non-medical exemption to getting the vaccine as will be the case in various states and for Federal jobs.

Considering many Christians go to independent, non-denominational churches, I'm not sure why what denominations say is particularly relevant. The largest denominations (Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox) have a position against using aborted baby stem cells. The Catholics have a position that using research derived from it in an "emergency" in short term is okay, but one must work towards finding a non-aborted-baby-stem-cell alternative.

Most evangelical type of groups came out with statements about research using aborted baby stem cells back in the mid-2000s. Unfortunately, this research streamrolled right ahead. Incidentally, Ken, if a non-fetal stem cell vaccine for COVID-19 existed, even if I thought it were harmful to health, I would be much more willing to accept the government forcing me or coercing me to take it. So if YOU want to see universal vaccination, this is something you should push for, instead of trying to force us to do something we think is equivalent to murdering a little baby.

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:59 pm

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:52 pm What do different denominations actually say about this? Surely by now various denominations have come out with opinions and guidance. Or they soon will be if "religious exemptions" are the only allowable non-medical exemption to getting the vaccine as will be the case in various states and for Federal jobs.

Considering many Christians go to independent, non-denominational churches, I'm not sure why what denominations say is particularly relevant. The largest denominations (Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox) have a position against using aborted baby stem cells. The Catholics have a position that using research derived from it in an "emergency" in short term is okay, but one must work towards finding a non-aborted-baby-stem-cell alternative.

Most evangelical type of groups came out with statements about research using aborted baby stem cells back in the mid-2000s. Unfortunately, this research streamrolled right ahead. Incidentally, Ken, if a non-fetal stem cell vaccine for COVID-19 existed, even if I thought it were harmful to health, I would be much more willing to accept the government forcing me or coercing me to take it. So if YOU want to see universal vaccination, this is something you should push for, instead of trying to force us to do something we think is equivalent to murdering a little baby.

I would assume that what various denominations have to say would be interesting and relevant if they take the time to justify their positions by looking at both scripture and science. I am a reasonably educated individual and I don't for a second think that I have examined every angle of every issue.

Of course if they are just issuing blanket mandates one way or the other without carefully justifying their positions then that is different.

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:15 pmI would assume that what various denominations have to say would be interesting and relevant if they take the time to justify their positions by looking at both scripture and science. I am a reasonably educated individual and I don't for a second think that I have examined every angle of every issue.

This issue was debated, and statements were made, back in the mid-2000s. Back then, I was not a believer in Jesus, and was very pro-abortion and pro-stem cell research. So it was something I was paying attention to.

Of course if they are just issuing blanket mandates one way or the other without carefully justifying their positions then that is different.

I don't see why any denomination other than your own needs to justify anything to you. For example, do you really care about my own denomination's reasoning for their conscientious objection to various things?

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:22 pm

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:15 pmI would assume that what various denominations have to say would be interesting and relevant if they take the time to justify their positions by looking at both scripture and science. I am a reasonably educated individual and I don't for a second think that I have examined every angle of every issue.

This issue was debated, and statements were made, back in the mid-2000s. Back then, I was not a believer in Jesus, and was very pro-abortion and pro-stem cell research. So it was something I was paying attention to.

Of course if they are just issuing blanket mandates one way or the other without carefully justifying their positions then that is different.

I don't see why any denomination other than your own needs to justify anything to you. For example, do you really care about my own denomination's reasoning for their conscientious objection to various things?

I'm not demanding any denomination justify anything to me. I'm not sure where you picked up that perception. But if any denomination cared to lay out a position on Covid vaccines then would read it and give it thought. Even your own denomination. I read a lot of different writings from different faiths. Some that I agree with, some that I disagree with.

A lot of current Covid vaccine requirements for various jobs contain religious exemptions. Here in WA, all teachers are now required to be vaccinated but there are both medical and religious exemptions. So I would expect that any denominations or faiths that have a religious objection to Covid vaccines will lay out their arguments for all to see using both scripture and science. This isn't some secret religious exemption. You actually have to lay it out on the relevant exemption forms and certify that you belong to a church or religion that objects to the use of medical treatment. If you want to do that then your church is going to have to come out with a public position to that effect that you can point to. If you belong to the Holdeman church and claim a religious exemption to the vaccine but your church is silent on the topic, or endorses the vaccine, then you risk having your religious exemption disapproved.

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:42 pm
A lot of current Covid vaccine requirements for various jobs contain religious exemptions. Here in WA, all teachers are now required to be vaccinated but there are both medical and religious exemptions. So I would expect that any denominations or faiths that have a religious objection to Covid vaccines will lay out their arguments for all to see using both scripture and science. This isn't some secret religious exemption. You actually have to lay it out on the relevant exemption forms and certify that you belong to a church or religion that objects to the use of medical treatment. If you want to do that then your church is going to have to come out with a public position to that effect that you can point to. If you belong to the Holdeman church and claim a religious exemption to the vaccine but your church is silent on the topic, or endorses the vaccine, then you risk having your religious exemption disapproved.

Actually, this isn't true. In past court cases, denomination or religious affiliation has nothing to do with what is considered a "sincere conviction". The same thing is true for CO status.

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:42 pmI'm not demanding any denomination justify anything to me. I'm not sure where you picked up that perception. But if any denomination cared to lay out a position on Covid vaccines then would read it and give it thought. Even your own denomination. I read a lot of different writings from different faiths. Some that I agree with, some that I disagree with.

As I said, a lot of denominations published positions on fetal stem cells, mostly around 2007 and broadly the 2005 - 2009 time frame, which is when these things were being debated in broader society.

A lot of current Covid vaccine requirements for various jobs contain religious exemptions. Here in WA, all teachers are now required to be vaccinated but there are both medical and religious exemptions. So I would expect that any denominations or faiths that have a religious objection to Covid vaccines will lay out their arguments for all to see using both scripture and science. This isn't some secret religious exemption. You actually have to lay it out on the relevant exemption forms and certify that you belong to a church or religion that objects to the use of medical treatment.

Well, that isn't how conscientious objection for the draft works. Membership in a religion isn't relevant; one's personal convictions are. (SSS clarified this with my own denomination, making it clear that merely being a church member will not be enough to avoid the draft if one's lifestyle does not otherwise qualify to be a C.O.)

If you want to do that then your church is going to have to come out with a public position to that effect that you can point to. If you belong to the Holdeman church and claim a religious exemption to the vaccine but your church is silent on the topic, or endorses the vaccine, then you risk having your religious exemption disapproved.

That is simply not how religious exemptions work (other than the Social Security exemption, which is defined in statute as not applying to a sect that objected to insured before 1950).

Our church prohibits taking photographs of ourselves, but no drivers' licence agency respects that anymore, so it's too bad that our church doesn't want us to take photographs.

A lot of Muslims utilise religious exemptions for things like being able to wear a headscarf in a drivers' licence photo. There is no universal Muslim denomination with a stance on that; it is almost entirely up to individual conscience. That is the proper legal standard.

Let's look at your state's religious exemption criteria:

"Religious Exemptions are also signed by a health care practitioner (MD, ND, PA, ARNP), stating that the practitioner has spoken to the parent/guardian about risks and benefits of vaccination. Every citizen has the right to a religious exemption if vaccination violates their personal religious beliefs."

That has nothing to do with a denomination, but does require you to get a health care practitioner to talk to you about vaccines and then sign a form saying they did so. The relevant statute states:

The Law wrote:(1) Any child shall be exempt in whole or in part from the immunization measures required by RCW 28A.210.060 through 28A.210.170 upon the presentation of any one or more of the certifications required by this section, on a form prescribed by the department of health:
...
(b) A written certification signed by any parent or legal guardian of the child or any adult in loco parentis to the child that the religious beliefs of the signator are contrary to the required immunization measures[.]

Your state does have a law that if you belong to a sect that holds religious beliefs against any kind of treatment at all, there's no need to even get this form signed:

Any parent or legal guardian of the child or any adult in loco parentis to the child who exempts the child due to religious beliefs pursuant to subsection (1)(b) of this section is not required to have the form provided for in (a) of this subsection signed by a health care practitioner if the parent or legal guardian demonstrates membership in a religious body or a church in which the religious beliefs or teachings of the church preclude a health care practitioner from providing medical treatment to the child.

But, beyond that, the state hasn't reserved for itself the right to somehow decide what different denominations say they believe. It is up to the individual to simply say whether or not they have a religious objection to certain vaccines.

The religious exemption laws will be changing going forward due to abuse... this is my prediction. Option A, they make it harder to receive it, Option B, they remove it entirely.

Church affiliation is likely not going to affect anything, they are likely going to be specifically likely looking for proof of pre-existing conviction prior to covid.

A true test of one's convictions is whether or not one sticks to them despite being rejected by the government. If the government required me to murder people, I would lodge a religious exemption.

If the government rejected my exemption, I would still refuse to murder people.

There really is no good pre-COVID precedent, because vaccines were not broadly required prior to COVID. The only vaccination decision I have made on my own is to get a TDAP vaccine, which doesn't use fetal stem cells.

More importantly, though, I don't see why a religious objection to the COVID vaccine specifically is "wrong". Someone is perfectly justified in saying that their faith and conscience doesn't allow them to use a vaccine they feel requires them to do something that is immoral. It seems very strange to have a government that is ready to force a needle into someone's arm.

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:50 pm

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:42 pm
A lot of current Covid vaccine requirements for various jobs contain religious exemptions. Here in WA, all teachers are now required to be vaccinated but there are both medical and religious exemptions. So I would expect that any denominations or faiths that have a religious objection to Covid vaccines will lay out their arguments for all to see using both scripture and science. This isn't some secret religious exemption. You actually have to lay it out on the relevant exemption forms and certify that you belong to a church or religion that objects to the use of medical treatment. If you want to do that then your church is going to have to come out with a public position to that effect that you can point to. If you belong to the Holdeman church and claim a religious exemption to the vaccine but your church is silent on the topic, or endorses the vaccine, then you risk having your religious exemption disapproved.

Actually, this isn't true. In past court cases, denomination or religious affiliation has nothing to do with what is considered a "sincere conviction". The same thing is true for CO status.

Right now I'm looking at the WA state vaccine exemption form that was in effect prior to Covid. It is all about membership in a church or religion that rejects medical treatment. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Docume ... mption.pdf New forms will obviously be drawn up that are tailored towards Covid. The old forms contain a personal/philosophical exemption which has been eliminated. And the old forms require that you obtain the signature of a licensed health care provider to certify that they informed you of the benefits of vaccines and the risk of not getting them. I don't know if they will keep that or not as this form was for kids. They will be as narrowly drawn up as the lawyers think will withstand scrutiny. Having worked in a bureaucracy, I have no doubt whatever they come up with will pass through multiple levels of legal review.

People may or may not challenge them on legal grounds. And they may or may not win depending on the court and arguments that they make. But that is a long and costly process and meanwhile you might still be fired from your job.

But that's not really my point at all. My point is that any denominations that support religious exemptions to Covid vaccine requirements are going to come out with well thought out PUBLIC positions that their members can point to when claiming exemptions. Assuming that they want to help their members claim exemptions. If not I suppose they will be fine with leaving them hanging on their own.