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Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:45 am

Psalm 12

12 Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Love this Psalm.

"When you see the arrogance of the crowd and evil spreading everywhere so that there seems to be no one left who is pleasing to God take refuge in the Lord and say Psalm 12."

-- Athanasius, On the Interpretation of the Psalms

"Do you see the solicitude of the inspired author, how he prays for them? The remark is not against them, no but on their behalf. He did not ask for them to be destroyed, note, but for the evil to be done away with. He did not say "the Lord will destroy them," note, but the "deceitful lips." Again he asks for the destruction not of their being but of their tongue, their folly, their deceit, and for an end to be put to their arrogance."

-- John Chrysostom, Commentary on the Psalms

My thoughts are about the words I highlighted in blue.

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou wilt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.

If we put our trust in the Lord's promises even as we're going through the experience described by the psalmist, we come to know God who reveals himself to us in his words. We grow in faith and in knowledge.

Why knowledge? Because the "pure words of the Lord" are "tried" (tested) and if we come to know God's faithfulness to us by being faithful when we are tested, then his words are tested, too, and found to be true.

One of the things that puzzled me as someone interested in philosophy is why Plato regarded belief as "opinion" and as something unreliable, that had to be tested to find real knowledge, in a process he called dialectics. Well, the Greeks didn't have the word of God to put their trust in, only men and "appearances." So for them, belief (trust) was not reliable, could not lead to knowledge.

Whereas for believers in the Judeo/Christian tradition, belief (faith) can be a kind of reliable knowledge. Why? Because the pure words of the Lord are tried (tested) in "a furnace," "purified seven times."

That's why "science" (as that word is understood today) can never shake a believer's faith.

Today's scientistic skeptics insist that knowledge can only be gained by experimental methods. If an experiment is testable and repeatable, and the results are always similar, we can say we have gained some knowledge.

Well, the promises of the Lord are just that, the Bible tells us.

That's why the psalmist can assure us " Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.." Because he has learned through being tested!

Another important truth to consider:

"The "flawless" character of Yahweh's word, refined like the finest silver seven times, is more than an illustration of the ultimate effectiveness of the divine word. The point of the psalm is not just that God will have the last word. The purity of the divine word also illumines a certain transparency in God. What Yahweh says reveals his true character. God does not dissemble or deceive. he says what he means and he does what he says. Therefore, not only can one trust Yahweh, one can also understand who god is by attending to his words."

-- Psalms Volume 1 (NIV Application Commentary)

https://happycatholic.blogspot.com/2021 ... -pure.html

Just something for us all to ponder!

Franklin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:15 pm

Law (torah, used 25 times in Psalm 119): “Its parent verb means ‘teach’ or ‘direct’; therefore coming from God it means both ‘law’ and ‘revelation.’ It can be used of a single command or of a whole body of law.” (Derek Kidner)

Yes its parent verb means teach, therefore it means teaching. The Old Testament is a book of teaching, not a book of law. Jesus obviously understood this, but Paul was ignorant and did not understand this which is why he kept complaining about "the Law".

Statutes (huqqim, used 21 times): The noun is derived from the root verb “engrave” or “inscribe”; the idea is the written word of God and the authority of His written word: “…declaring his authority and power of giving us laws.” (Matthew Poole)

English is a verbose language full of synonyms. Hebrew is not. "Statute" and "law" are synonyms. "hok" is the Hebrew word for law, not "torah". In the Old Testament, "hok" is always used in the plural, never "the law" (Hebrew "ha hok").

Word (dabar, used 24 times): The idea is of the spoken word, God’s revealed word to man. “Proceeding from his mouth and revealed by him to us…” (Matthew Poole)

"Dabar" means word or idea or thing. This reflects a fundamentally different worldview, the idea that from a human perspective all we have is what is in our mind as a result of sensory input, and therefore a thing, idea, and word are all basically the same.

In addition:

Truth (emet): The Western concept of truth comes from Plato. There is no such concept in the Old Testament, no concept of absolute truth. This word would be better translated as "trustworthiness". Philosophically this is related to "dabar" and is a total rejection of western philosophy.

Heart (lev): This also means brain/mind. There is no distinction between heart and mind in Hebrew, but Christians always translate to "heart" presumably to avoid any idea that they have to use their mind/brain.

LORD (Yhvh): This is God's name and doesn't mean "lord" at all. There is another word, "adoniah", which means lord. Talmudic Jews are to blame for this mistranslation, but Christians have kept it.

Of the Christian translations, only King James even comes close to the original meaning, and the translation in the original post in this thread is not King James.

Franklin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:15 pm

Law (torah, used 25 times in Psalm 119): “Its parent verb means ‘teach’ or ‘direct’; therefore coming from God it means both ‘law’ and ‘revelation.’ It can be used of a single command or of a whole body of law.” (Derek Kidner)

Yes its parent verb means teach, therefore it means teaching. The Old Testament is a book of teaching, not a book of law. Jesus obviously understood this, but Paul was ignorant and did not understand this which is why he kept complaining about "the Law".

The LORD reigns forever; he has established his throne for judgment. Psalm 9:7

Truth (emet): The Western concept of truth comes from Plato. There is no such concept in the Old Testament, no concept of absolute truth. This word would be better translated as "trustworthiness". Philosophically this is related to "dabar" and is a total rejection of western philosophy.

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:01 pm
There was a reason Biblical interpreters used the word "Lord" instead of the name YHWH though I can't recall it at the moment. Maybe I can find this later and get back on it.

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:01 pm Franklin, thanks for the comments. Very interesting observations. However, I'm not expert enough to know whether or to what extent Jesus agreed or whether and to what extent Paul misunderstood it, but it's interesting to me that the parent verb means to direct or teach.

However, I will say that praying (especially the Psalms) is often portrayed as going to court before a Judge, even by Jesus, in parables. I do believe we can pray for justice, in accordance with God's Law. However, the New Testament shows us we are sinners, too, and so have to keep in mind the good of the person sinning against us, which God desires, too. We have to pray for justice, while praying for the trespasser, leaving it in God's hands, knowing that His justice is always tempered with perfect love. (And keeping in mind our opponent may have a good point, too!)

No matter how tempting, we cannot lash out in anger because "the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God."

We have to follow the rules.

Nonetheless all this is often portrayed as going to court in the Bible, with God being the only lawgiver and judge, especially in the New Testament.

Truth (emet): The Western concept of truth comes from Plato. There is no such concept in the Old Testament, no concept of absolute truth. This word would be better translated as "trustworthiness". Philosophically this is related to "dabar" and is a total rejection of western philosophy.

This is something I've never looked at closely. The word truth used by Jesus in the New Testament was "aletheia" which etymologically means "not concealing" and therefore "disclosure."

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=aletheia

Now I've got to do some looking up on this word to see how it developed philosophically. It would also be interesting to see how it was understood by middle age philosophers like Augustine, Aquinas, etc.

Whether or not the idea of "absolute truth" can be traced to Plato is doubtful to me. He used the word truth (aletheia) in its meaning as "disclosure" but to the best of my knowledge, "absolute truth" meaning something like an "undeniable fact" is something attributed to Plato by interpreters. That interpretation became widespread and accepted but it's an erroneous interpretation, imo. The phrase "absolute truth" never occurs anywhere in Plato's works, AFAIK. Now I'm wondering where it first occurred. I never looked it up.

There was a reason Biblical interpreters used the word "Lord" instead of the name YHWH though I can't recall it at the moment. Maybe I can find this later and get back on it.

Today's scientistic skeptics insist that knowledge can only be gained by experimental methods. If an experiment is testable and repeatable, and the results are always similar, we can say we have gained some knowledge.

Falco:
I find this stunning!

temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:35 pm

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:08 am C.S. Lewis believed God created man by evolution and then gifted man with a soul.

For long centuries God perfected the animal form which was to become the vehicle of humanity and the image of Himself [….] Then, in the fullness of time, God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology, a new kind of consciousness […] In perfect cyclic movement, being, power and joy descended from God to man in the form of gift and returned from man to God in the form of obedient love and ecstatic adoration. (Lewis, Problem of Pain 65)

C.S. Lewis also upheld a view called methodological naturalism,
the view that the methods of science can only arrive at naturalistic explanations.
He wrote,

Science works by experiments. It watches how things behave. Every scientific statement in the long run, however complicated it looks, really means something like, ‘I pointed the telescope to such and such a part of the sky at 2:20 a.m. on January 15th and saw so and-so,’ […] Do not think I am saying anything against science: I am only saying what its job is [….] But why anything comes to be there at all, and whether there is anything behind the things science observes-something of a different kind-this is not a scientific question. (Mere 22)

http://www.cslewis.org/journal/cs-lewis ... -design/3/

I suppose these views are similar to my own.

I might quibble with C. S. Lewis's view that questions about God are not a matter for science though. The modern idea that only studies that use the experimental methods in its investigations qualify as science is erroneous, in my view. Plato's dialectics is a real science that can address that, imo. But I won't address that here further cause that would bunny trail.

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:27 pm St. Augustine on the Creation narrative —

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen. 1:1-2

1. in the Beginning, that is, in the divine Wisdom, the divine Word of God, Who is the Beginning, as He tells us in Jn 8:25, in answer to the question Who are you? - (I am) the Beginning. Also, Collosions 1:18, "He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent." Also, John 1:1-3.

Augustine does not hesitate to affirm a reference to the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity in these first two verses of Genesis: "For, where Scripture says, In the beginning God made heaven and earth, we understand the Father in the name of God, and the Son in the name of the Beginning, Who is the beginning (Colossians 1:16, John 1:3) ... and, where Scripture says, and the Spirit of God moved over the waters, we see a full commemoration of the Trinity.

2. Augustine believed all that was created was created in a moment, in the Beginning. Thus the "days" of creation are for narrative purposes only.

3. The Biblical account references form and matter and light. Augustine does not believe there was a pre-existent formless matter because everything was created at once. The narrative does separate form and matter and light has the preeminent place. John 1:9

"But if the light which first was ordered to be made and was made is also to be understood as holding the pre-eminent place in creation, this is intellectual life, which, unless it should be turned to the Creator in order to be enlightened, would fluctuate formlessly."

Augustine believed the light of the first 3 days was a spiritual light.

Reference: https://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/ar ... logy0.html

Falco,
i’m glad, in spite of some early bumps, you decided to contribute here/this forum. all topics.

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:31 pm To Franklin's point, however, "aletheia," which is translated as "truth," does seem more in line with the Greek meaning.

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:08 pm Life on earth did not begin with Jesus Christ.

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
2 Cor. 2:16

Jesus came to offer salvation to the fallen world.
He did not come to “nothingness” on earth. The world He met, full of human reasoning and human law, was too much like today’s world. Shouldn’t we be doing better with what He gave us?

Open Yale courses:
“CLCV 205: Introduction to Ancient Greek History”
https://oyc.yale.edu/classics/clcv-205/lecture-1

Open Harvard courses:
“Harvard Offering Free Distance Learning Class on the Ancient Greek Hero; More Than 40,000 People Have Registered”
https://pappaspost.com/harvard-ancient- ... ro-course/