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From this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=109&p=2446#p2446

steve-in-kville » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:26 pm
I had a long answer, complete with a real live example, but I'll try this route first:

People who suffered through things like mental health issues, addictions, abuse, etc. are rarely treated like a first-class member. The entire thing is spun around and they are made out to be the bad guy... like they are hiding sin or something. Granted, hidden sin can be a cause, but its not the do all, end all response that many churches try to make it out to be. Basically they are hounded to "come clean" with something that isn't there.

Now before everyone gets all ruffled over me adding addictions to the above list, they are more a mental health issue (IMO) than perhaps a sin issue. I can argue that all night. And I am talking about true addictions. Many a person put his arm around around me and tells me he knows all about it. No you don't. Getting hammered on a few beers back in high school does not make you an expert... its just means you drank and you weren't suppose to. There's a difference!!

Commence flaming!!

I've moved this from the other thread because I'd like to see a discussion on this. I know a few people quite well with addictions.
Steve says here that he can argue his side, so he must have some reasons for his belief. I can't really argue either side, and find myself tossed to and fro on the issue. But I'd like to see the other side (or two or three). Steve would you expand on why you believe this? I'd like to hear your side.
Without knowing what it is, I feel quite helpless trying to assist certain people I am close to.

Thanks, this deserves its own thread. I have some thoughts on the subject and will share later.

To respond to the bolded and underlined line, I'd say that addiction starts with sin. From there, that sin becomes the master of the addicts life & mental illness-like consequences are inevitable. Not to say that predispositions don't exist in this fallen world, though.

Good thread- I'll try and contribute.

There was a link from MD on this.

The article went over studies done where people had had surgeries in hospitals and had been having drugs (obviously regulated) that are quite similar to some street drugs. I think it said that most who have healthy relationships to go back home to could stop the drugs "cold turkey," and would have no desire to come back to the drugs. And the results were not so positive for those with unhealthy home relationships.
Then they did a study on rats that when they were placed in a pen in solitude with a bottle of good water and another with drugged water, that all of them eventually drugged themselves to death. But when rats were put in a pen with lots of other rats in a similar situation having good water and drugged water; all of them tried the drugged water but lots of them stopped drinking it.

So from that:
Addiction has something to do with disconnect. Especially social.
Kind of like: sin is has to do with Spirit disconnect.

So addiction if I can say has a cause related to disconnect in social relations making people turn to something that they can have stimulate that void.

We don't want to be condoning as addicts need to know that what they are doing is wrong. The problem is stilling showing that we care by showing unconditionally love and so avoiding them or holding them away can further the disconnect just actually making it worse...

Difficult.

steve-in-kville » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:26 pm
I had a long answer, complete with a real live example, but I'll try this route first:

People who suffered through things like mental health issues, addictions, abuse, etc. are rarely treated like a first-class member. The entire thing is spun around and they are made out to be the bad guy... like they are hiding sin or something. Granted, hidden sin can be a cause, but its not the do all, end all response that many churches try to make it out to be. Basically they are hounded to "come clean" with something that isn't there.

Now before everyone gets all ruffled over me adding addictions to the above list, they are more a mental health issue (IMO) than perhaps a sin issue. I can argue that all night. And I am talking about true addictions. Many a person put his arm around around me and tells me he knows all about it. No you don't. Getting hammered on a few beers back in high school does not make you an expert... its just means you drank and you weren't suppose to. There's a difference!!

Commence flaming!!

I am about to flame no one. It is sinful to treat anyone differently based on the issues they are facing, and you should not have had to experience this. I do disagree with some of your conclusions, but my own thinking is flawed on many subjects and this may be no exception.

As a preface to some of the thoughts I'm about to share I will make two points. The first is that you are absolutely correct, I have no clue what it's like to be addicted to a substance such as alcohol or cocaine or meth. However, I have watched helplessly as someone dear to me ruined their lives and ultimately became a victim of homicide due to bad choices and a life of addiction. You don't go through that without doing some serious thinking on the matter. I have also applauded as a friend of mine overcame substance abuse. Being at his one year drug free NA meeting is a memory I cherish. It is possible to overcome! Second, most of the thoughts I have on the subject were learned by reading several of Edward T. Welch's books. The CCEF puts out some fantastic material, they may have the most Bible based counseling model currently in use. In particular, you might enjoy "Blame it on the Brain" as well as "Addictions, A Banquet in the Grave."

If we take alcohol as an example, we discover that God always calls drunkenness sin. This differs considerably with the American medical Association which has now reduced alcoholism to a disease. If as Christians we are happy to side with science, we will find our trust in the foundation of the Bible slowly erroding. They can't both be correct.

Would God infect us with a disease that causes us to be helpless about our sin against Him? Would God give us a mental condition that guarantees we sin and can not possibly overcome? Even if alcoholism is like a disease and you can't be responsible for the cause, you most certainly are responsible for the cure. The Bible does not speak to the issue of alcoholism being a disease. What it does speak to is our desires and our sinful hearts. "For you are a slave to whatever controls you" And we know that God requires us to choose only one Master. Addictions then become a disorder of worship, and the heart of an addict beats in us all.

It is my belief that certain biological factors can predispose people to enjoying certain physical experiences, food, drinks or drugs, but that is entirely different from these biological predispositions being a determining factor. However, sin does feel like a disease. In fact in Isaiah 1-4-6 God uses the analogy of disease to describe sin in his people. And while there are similarities, the Bible is also careful to make distinctions between the two. We can become empowered by God to overcome sin (addiction) but not necessarily a disease.

"Addiction is bondage to the rule of a substance, activity or state of mind,which then becomes the center of life.... To locate it on the theological map, look under sin. More specifically, since sin is a broad category that includes both self-conscious disobedience and victimizing slavery, find addiction on the side that emphasizes slavery. ~Welch in Addictions

To this all we need to add another observation: Each person's addiction will be unique because of contributing circumstances such as how others have sinned against us and family examples and background, etc.

None of this is meant to be judgemental of addicts, these are merely a few foundational thoughts to understanding addiction so we can later build on that to find the hope offered in the Bible.

Very well said, Signtist

Signtist wrote: Thanks, this deserves its own thread.
I have some thoughts on the subject and will share later.

Agreed.
much of what steve posts deserves its own thread.

as a young child, i witnessed terrible things from alcohol addiction in my father. my mother and older sibs witnessed and experienced lots of trauma, and drama. fighting, beatings, chaos. it was awful.

but it was not constant.
my father did not drink all the time, he was a hard worker, and devoted husband and father.
but alcohol turned him into another person. i grew up hating alcohol like nothing else.

i'm not sure how much of this early experience later protected me from the 60-70's "drug scene," but, as an older teen and in my 20's, when this was "all the rage," i had NO problem "just saying no," before it was a popularized FLOTUS gov program. i found it hard to believe anyone would even consider alcohol and/or drugs .. but, it was all around me. thankfully, no one ever tried to push me into these things. "pushing" was/is a big problem. somehow, my unwillingness was respected.

possibly, there was a sense i had been hurt by these things, i don't know. i don't believe i spoke of it, i don't believe i would have been able to articulate my experiences and feelings at that early time in my life.

i agree with those who believe some people are predisposed to addictions.
the form of addiction can vary. we have learned, drugs and/or alcohol can be addictive, including prescription drugs! .. in recent years, it's recognized, pornography and sex can become addictive.
in early U.S., it became known that Native Americans, as a group, were vulnerable to alcohol addiction.

in those early years, whiskey and other alcohols, were often household staples, with multiple uses. safe drinking water was not always available. drunkenness happened. but, not always. there's a clue.

i believe there are problems with BOTH predisposition, AND/OR, sin+self-indulgence problems.
i agree, a person of any age "testing" themselves does not automatically equate with addiction.
it's risky! it does TEMPT addiction. but addiction is not the guaranteed result.

not enough is known.

my grandmothers and dear mother-in-law would disagree!
they were so frightened of any use of alcohol, they would not use it for cooking, "medicinal" purposes, or for any reason. at an older age, my dear mil was scandalized, having sleep problems, her doctor recommended a small glass of wine at bedtime.
o.my.goodness. that got a lot of "airtime" in the family!
i have wondered if he did it to tease her a bit. i will never know.

she was terrified if she took one taste she would fall into hopeless moral decay.
(i think) this was exaggerated on her part. but i do not know.
we did not push her to try. there IS risk. and, no one is a true expert.

my mother was jaw-dropping loyal to my father through all this.
she hated the addiction! no grey area there.
but she remained quietly loyal and steadfast to our father throughout, would not allow a negative word about him, or the problem.

she was quiet. it wasn't what she said. but, her stern looks took care of dissenters.
this was their marriage, and NO ONE, NO THING, could put asunder.

thankfully, in time, our father turned his back on alcohol, and never returned.
he said nothing.
but his actions spoke for him. he was deeply sorry for all that happened, spent his remaining years trying to make up for it (never putting into words, but it was clear.) i fear he never forgave himself for it. and i really really wanted him to. but i couldn't put it into words.

so. lots of things happen.
addictions have a wide ripple effect. lots of kinds of addictions.

i hope this isn't utter nonsense.
when our children were in high school and middle school -
we were busy! up at dawn or before, running all day, bed at 10 or 11 or so.

hard work, but, we loved it, praised God for having the health to keep up with it.
because, we knew, health to work hard is not guaranteed. it's a rich blessing.

during that time, i enjoyed a big cup of coffee in the mornings. loved it.
the smell, the flavors, the warmth, the ritual! loved it.

it began making me sick. just not doing my stomach any good.
i drank it anyway.

then -
i remember talking to our teens about it.
i said, i think this must be the definition of addiction (?) -
"when you are compelled to do something that you know will hurt you."

as this thread asks, what is addiction (to you?)

KingdomBuilder wrote:Very well said, Signtist

X2, Signtist

Signtist, I think what you had to say is very profound. I'm on the board of a ministry that publishes a magazine for prison inmates, and one of the requests I have heard that we receive frequently is help for addictions. We haven't really offered much material in the magazine about the problem. I've wondered what help an article in a magazine can give an addict anyway. But you have set me thinking about whether the problem really could be in our own minds, and that perhaps the point you are making might be helpful. Thanks for your thoughts.