Is Jesus for “Law & Order?”

[temporal1]

Olive brutality happens and it shouldn’t.

Maybe so. I do like some of the results.
Check out Corning, California.

It brings a new dimension to the phrase, “pit stop”.

[Szdfan]

What sin specifically were those language and cultural divisions the result of?

Hubris.

But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel — because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
— Genesis 11:5-9

I think that's partly right, but I do think you something by clipping out only a part of the account. In fact, just one verse previous we are told why the people wanted to build the tower - it was to avoid being scattered over the face of the earth. It may have actually been a case of direct rebellion against God. Surely these people knew that God had given command to Noah to replenish the earth, which would seem to suggest spreading out rather than grouping together. It would seem from the entire account that the scattering was not a result of sin, but that the confusion of tongues was God's way of forcing these people to do what he had intended them to do.

That being said, I don't subscribe to the theories that JohnH is promoting on this thread. I think the account of Babel is most useful as a caution against consolidating power and control and social structures, and possibly as a caution against economic power and advancement.

I don’t think we disagree much. Babel exposes humanity’s desire to control and dominate — which I consider sin — and God’s scattering is a consequence of that sin. I don’t think that these divisions were God’s initial intentions for humanity though. This isn’t what God initially intended, but a wound that needs healing. The arc throughout the rest of Scripture, is God working to heal that scattering and wounding until the redemption and reconciliation of creation in Revelations.

[Valerie]

Olive brutality happens and it shouldn’t.

Maybe so. I do like some of the results.
Check out Corning, California.

It brings a new dimension to the phrase, “pit stop”.

I grew up on Olive Circle in CA
We had an olive tree.
Must have had a flashback

[JohnH]

The Olive Pit used to have an olive and olive oil "tasting bar" (sadly, it doesn't seem to have returned post-COVID). Their muffaletta based sandwich is amazing. It's as good as what you'd find in Greece or Israel.

[JohnL]

I'm finding this thread very interesting and very enlightening. I do have a problem with an earworm whenever I see the thread title listed. The theme song "Bad Boys Bad Boys, whatcha gonna do; whatcha gonna do when they come for you" keeps rolling around my old brain. I know, go wait in the car, John.

[R7ehr]

The Olive Pit used to have an olive and olive oil "tasting bar" (sadly, it doesn't seem to have returned post-COVID). Their muffaletta based sandwich is amazing. It's as good as what you'd find in Greece or Israel.

The olive oil tasting bar and vinegar tasting bars were open November 2024

[JohnH]

The Olive Pit used to have an olive and olive oil "tasting bar" (sadly, it doesn't seem to have returned post-COVID). Their muffaletta based sandwich is amazing. It's as good as what you'd find in Greece or Israel.

The olive oil tasting bar and vinegar tasting bars were open November 2024

Yum

[Bootstrap]

Why is it that "Law and Order" often sounds like the opposite of "The Rule of Law"?

"Rule of Law" puts the law above the rulers and says they have to obey the law. "Law and Order" often puts the rulers above the law, excusing their lawlessness. That’s how authoritarian leaders such as Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Francisco Franco, Augusto Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos, Vladimir Putin, Rodrigo Duterte, and Richard Nixon used the slogan.

They turned “law” into a weapon of control and “order” into a justification for investigating, harassing, or silencing those who disagreed.

[JohnH]

Why is it that "Law and Order" often sounds like the opposite of "The Rule of Law"?

"Rule of Law" puts the law above the rulers and says they have to obey the law. "Law and Order" often puts the rulers above the law, excusing their lawlessness. That’s how authoritarian leaders such as Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Francisco Franco, Augusto Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos, Vladimir Putin, Rodrigo Duterte, and Richard Nixon used the slogan.

They turned “law” into a weapon of control and “order” into a justification for investigating, harassing, or silencing those who disagreed.

You left a few people off of your list, but perhaps compiling such lists isn't something we need to do in "General Theology"?

[Bootstrap]

Why is it that "Law and Order" often sounds like the opposite of "The Rule of Law"?

"Rule of Law" puts the law above the rulers and says they have to obey the law. "Law and Order" often puts the rulers above the law, excusing their lawlessness. That’s how authoritarian leaders such as Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Francisco Franco, Augusto Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos, Vladimir Putin, Rodrigo Duterte, and Richard Nixon used the slogan.

They turned “law” into a weapon of control and “order” into a justification for investigating, harassing, or silencing those who disagreed.

You left a few people off of your list, but perhaps compiling such lists isn't something we need to do in "General Theology"?

For "General Theology", we don't need a complete list of names. But perhaps we do need some Old Testament teaching on misuse of the law and perverted justice.

It's not a new problem. But it is clearly a problem. Often with hypocritical appeals to the law.

Torah (Foundational Warnings)

Exodus 23:2–3, 6–8

Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd… Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits… Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the innocent.

Leviticus 19:15

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Deuteronomy 16:18–20

Appoint judges and officials… and they shall judge the people fairly. Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the innocent. Follow justice and justice alone.

Prophets (Condemning Systemic Corruption)

Isaiah 10:1–2

Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people.

Isaiah 5:23

Woe to those… who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent.

Amos 5:7, 10–12, 24

There are those who turn justice into bitterness and cast righteousness to the ground… They hate the one who upholds justice in court and detest the one who tells the truth… For I know how many are your offenses… You oppress the innocent and take bribes and deprive the poor of justice in the courts… But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!

Micah 3:9–11

Hear this, you leaders of Jacob, you rulers of Israel, who despise justice and distort all that is right… Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean on the LORD and say, ‘Is not the LORD among us?’

Habakkuk 1:4

Therefore the law is paralyzed, and justice never prevails. The wicked hem in the righteous, so that justice is perverted.

Wisdom Literature

Proverbs 17:23

The wicked accept bribes in secret to pervert the course of justice.

Ecclesiastes 5:8

If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still.