Christians and tattoos

[karpos]

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

One of the ways you can tell fruit is by its appearance...

I see Jesus relating to a whole lot of people who did not appear holy to the Pharisees. So how do we judge these things rightly as Christians today?

How do we know if we are acting more like Jesus or more like the people Jesus called unrighteous judges? They certainly looked like good religious people to themselves and to the people they hung out with. They could point to their own righteous clothing and practices and to the unrighteous practices of others.

But Jesus judged these things differently. So we should be careful and think clearly about what the Bible actually teaches us. All of it. In light of what Jesus said and did.

As long as I have been going to church there have always been people comparing others to pharisees and the like and challenging everything from modesty guidelines to what constitutes Christian music and what doesn't. It's a lot like people who dont wear printed clothes being called legalistic by people that do

There have ALWAYS been people trying to tear others down. I would like someone to convince me Jesus would have a tattoo or emulate some rock musician.

I remember people trying to convince me Jesus would be okay with guys emulating rock musicians as long as the people they were emulating had "christian lyrics". Anyone remember Petra?

[MaxPC]

As long as I have been going to church there have always been people comparing others to pharisees and the like and challenging everything from modesty guidelines to what constitutes Christian music and what doesn't. It's a lot like people who dont wear printed clothes being called legalistic by people that do.

There have ALWAYS been people trying to tear others down. I would like someone to convince me Jesus would have a tattoo or emulate some rock musician.

I remember people trying to convince me Jesus would be okay with guys emulating rock musicians as long as the people they were emulating had "christian lyrics". Anyone remember Petra?

I nicknamed that kind of comparison as coercion through ad hominem attack. The other party tries to belittle your firm beliefs through a false use of Scripture. Even satan used Scripture in trying to tempt Jesus. This is often the tactic of homosexual activists. They forget that after Jesus forgave He also said, "Go and sin no more."

There's nothing wrong with having a firm belief against tattoos. There's nothing wrong with a fellowship setting standards for behavior and dress. It's about the fellowship being led to live out their discipleship according to how they discern it from the Holy Spirit.

[Bootstrap]

I see Jesus relating to a whole lot of people who did not appear holy to the Pharisees. So how do we judge these things rightly as Christians today?

How do we know if we are acting more like Jesus or more like the people Jesus called unrighteous judges? They certainly looked like good religious people to themselves and to the people they hung out with. They could point to their own righteous clothing and practices and to the unrighteous practices of others.

But Jesus judged these things differently. So we should be careful and think clearly about what the Bible actually teaches us. All of it. In light of what Jesus said and did.

As long as I have been going to church there have always been people comparing others to pharisees and the like and challenging everything from modesty guidelines to what constitutes Christian music and what doesn't. It's a lot like people who dont wear printed clothes being called legalistic by people that do.

Which is why I keep trying to turn our attention to the Bible and what Jesus said and did. I think that is the only safe ground to build on.

There have ALWAYS been people trying to tear others down. I would like someone to convince me Jesus would have a tattoo or emulate some rock musician.

I remember people trying to convince me Jesus would be okay with guys emulating rock musicians as long as the people they were emulating had "christian lyrics". Anyone remember Petra?

I don't know. Jesus hung out with a whole lot of people that fine religious people could not tolerate - some of them were sinners whom he came to redeem, some of them simply did not fit into the self-righteous religious boxes that the Pharisees liked.

I am inclined not to judge people for doing things differently than I would unless the Bible is clear, and to try to avoid being judgemental even then. I don't judge you for your modesty guidelines, I don't judge someone with a tattoo. I see nothing in Scripture that permits me to judge either.

I'm happy to judge where the Bible is clear. In this thread, I think we've sometimes been skating on thin ice there. The way we treat each other in this thread matters. The way we treat people that the Pharisees would have scorned matters too. We who are careful to practice our religion should look at the example of the Pharisees and be careful - just being very scrupulous about religion is not enough if we are not following what Jesus said and did.

[karpos]

I nicknamed that kind of comparison as coercion through ad hominem attack. The other party tries to belittle your firm beliefs through a false use of Scripture. Even satan used Scripture in trying to tempt Jesus. This is often the tactic of homosexual activists. They forget that after Jesus forgave He also said, "Go and sin no more."

I know. some people where my wife have made of her for the way she dresses but not that many. most of the attacks on the cape dress, head covering style and no makeup have come from girls who grew up mennonite, left, cut their hair, started wearing pants and makeup and the like. I've heard all of this stuff before.

[MaxPC]

I nicknamed that kind of comparison as coercion through ad hominem attack. The other party tries to belittle your firm beliefs through a false use of Scripture. Even satan used Scripture in trying to tempt Jesus. This is often the tactic of homosexual activists. They forget that after Jesus forgave He also said, "Go and sin no more."

I know. some people where my wife have made of her for the way she dresses but not that many. most of the attacks on the cape dress, head covering style and no makeup have come from girls who grew up mennonite, left, cut their hair, started wearing pants and makeup and the like. I've heard all of this stuff before.

I have heard it before as well in Catholic circles against my wife. Usually by those who have already sold out to the secular culture. We always remind them that our own catechism calls seeking the approval of others as the sin of human respect. They look befuddled when we tell them that. Then they go back to their fashion magazines.

[karpos]

I don't know. Jesus hung out with a whole lot of people that fine religious people could not tolerate - some of them were sinners whom he came to redeem, some of them simply did not fit into the self-righteous religious boxes that the Pharisees liked.

ive heard this argument to support "christian rock" and Jesus was this very contemporary person and would dress like a rock musician in order to reach people that listened to rock music, had long hair and body piercings...I dont buy it.

[gcdonner]

Personally I agree with RZehr - I would certainly try to convince my children that having tattoos is not appropriate for a plain Christian. I do not judge people with tattoos - but if Pastor Rich wants another tattoo, I hope it is someplace where I won't see it when I meet him for the first time, because (I am also sterotyping) I would not expect him to have one. I fondly remember him from MD and was recently wondering where he had gone.

Old Order people do not always provide chapter and verse for why they do or don't do certain things. Like the people Neto mentioned, there are things that just don't seem right to us, things that even little children notice, as Josh said.

And I would be interested in that bunny trail of what of the OT do we maintain today. I often think we keep what suits us and leave the things that don't make sense to us today. So much of Leviticus would be included in the things that we would say are not relevant today.

Bunny trail...
What about the Mennonite use of Deut 22:5?

[gcdonner]

Seriously?

Yes. Prisons document tattoos and can tell what gang someone belongs to. People get tattoos illegally when they join a prison gang for protection or to commit acts of violence.

If you ever get tried for something in a court and have visible tattoos, you are more likely to be found guilty because people assume you are in a street gang

https://www.businessinsider.com/what-pr ... ean-2016-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_tattoo

So which is it... Did I get drunk at a party or am I a gang member? Rather judgmental IMO

Just so you know, clearly, this is not my estimation of you or anyone who may have a tattoo. Before Christ it was done in ignorance, but for those who claim to be in Christ, they can't claim ignorance as to our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit. IMO, He doesn't appreciate graffiti on His temple.

[gcdonner]

A mark on your body denotes ownership just as a brand on a cow denotes ownership. If someone wishes to have themselves branded like a cow, that is their decision but people aren't cows and dont need to look like them.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

there isnt going to be any mark of ownership on me...

Well your use of the passages in Revelation are out of context and should be interpreted in the light of Deut 6:8; 11:18; Ezek 9:4 and other passages. If you have the seal of God, you cannot take the mark of the beast. (which is now past tense anyway)

[gcdonner]

This thread has devolved and I'm out... If anyone would like to engage in thoughtful conversation on this issue with me please PM me...

I have appreciated your kind spirit and you have taken abuse needlessly, but harmlessly. Our Savior is pleased with your responses, I am sure.