What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

General Christian Theology
Bootstrap

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:47 pm
boot:
.. ignore the noise from Fox News ..
i’ve repeated multiple times, i do not follow Fox, never have.
Not directly. I think most people just don't know where the information they consume comes from. But why is it that people have such strong opinions about Critical Race Theory when the media decides to make it a topic, and why is it that people with such strong opinions have not read what they are criticizing?

To me, Crenshaw and Bell seem to be the people who coined the term, but the right-wing campaign against CRT seems to be characterizing it as something that Crenshaw and Bell would not recognize.

I thin there's a reason for that. I think a lot of this involves manufactured political outrage. There's a whole ecosystem for manufacturing this outrage, and Fox plays a key role in how it works, so does You Tube. When a new outrage shows up on MN, I can reliably find it on Fox. You know other people who reliably channel this political outrage, and the constant drumbeat of this political outrage seems to be a big part of what some see as a conservative identity. Challenging the latest outrage seems to drive people nuts.

I found this article helpful:

How a Conservative Activist Invented the Conflict over Critical Race Theory
Rufo read the footnotes in those books, and found that they pointed to academic scholarship from the nineteen-nineties, by a group of legal scholars who referred to their work as critical race theory, in particular Kimberlé Crenshaw and Derrick Bell. These scholars argued that the white supremacy of the past lived on in the laws and societal rules of the present. As Crenshaw recently explained, critical race theory found that “the so-called American dilemma was not simply a matter of prejudice but a matter of structured disadvantages that stretched across American society.”

This inquiry, into the footnotes and citations in the documents he’d been sent, formed the basis for an idea that has organized cultural politics this spring: that the anti-racism seminars did not just represent a progressive view on race but that they were expressions of a distinct ideology—critical race theory—with radical roots. If people were upset about the seminars, Rufo wanted them also to notice “critical race theory” operating behind the curtain. Following the trail back through the citations in the legal scholars’ texts, Rufo thought that he could detect the seed of their ideas in radical, often explicitly Marxist, critical-theory texts from the generation of 1968. (Crenshaw said that this was a selective, “red-baiting” account of critical race theory’s origins, which overlooked less divisive influences such as Martin Luther King, Jr.) But Rufo believed that he could detect a single lineage, and that the same concepts and terms that organized discussions among white employees of the city of Seattle, or the anti-racism seminars at Sandia National Laboratories, were present a half century ago. “Look at Angela Davis—you see all of the key terms,” Rufo said. Davis had been Herbert Marcuse’s doctoral student, and Rufo had been reading her writing from the late sixties to the mid-seventies. He felt as if he had begun with a branch and discovered the root. If financial regulators in Washington were attending seminars in which they read Kendi’s writing that anti-racism was not possible without anti-capitalism, then maybe that was more than casual talk.

As Rufo eventually came to see it, conservatives engaged in the culture war had been fighting against the same progressive racial ideology since late in the Obama years, without ever being able to describe it effectively. “We’ve needed new language for these issues,” Rufo told me, when I first wrote to him, late in May. “ ‘Political correctness’ is a dated term and, more importantly, doesn’t apply anymore. It’s not that elites are enforcing a set of manners and cultural limits, they’re seeking to reengineer the foundation of human psychology and social institutions through the new politics of race, It’s much more invasive than mere ‘correctness,’ which is a mechanism of social control, but not the heart of what’s happening. The other frames are wrong, too: ‘cancel culture’ is a vacuous term and doesn’t translate into a political program; ‘woke’ is a good epithet, but it’s too broad, too terminal, too easily brushed aside. ‘Critical race theory’ is the perfect villain,” Rufo wrote.

He thought that the phrase was a better description of what conservatives were opposing, but it also seemed like a promising political weapon. “Its connotations are all negative to most middle-class Americans, including racial minorities, who see the world as ‘creative’ rather than ‘critical,’ ‘individual’ rather than ‘racial,’ ‘practical’ rather than ‘theoretical.’ Strung together, the phrase ‘critical race theory’ connotes hostile, academic, divisive, race-obsessed, poisonous, elitist, anti-American.” Most perfect of all, Rufo continued, critical race theory is not “an externally applied pejorative.” Instead, “it’s the label the critical race theorists chose themselves.”
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temporal1

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by temporal1 »

:arrow: Woodson remembered when Black families used to be a model for the rest of the nation.
He said, “From1930-1940, during America’s 10 years of depression, when racism was enshrined in law, elderly people could walk safely in their community without fear of assault :arrow: because of our faith in Christ and also our marriage—

:arrow: we had the highest marriage rate of any group…that has been our history.”

:arrow: Ultimately, a spiritual renewal is what is needed to turn things, including fatherlessness, around. ..

If these desirable things are true, they were true IN SPITE OF the history of slavery. Which Jesus Christ promises.
It causes a person to wonder, “What happened that was so much worse than slavery, that caused so much damage?” :shock:
A FAIR question.

My guess:
Incompetence of well-intentioned human reasoning, AND, sin.
The article above cites the sexual revolution. Not a bad place to start. Being in sin is a dark form of slavery. With an evil master.

Only human reasoning would conclude: It’s not working? - throw more taxpayer dollars at it, broaden the scope. :idea:
Not of Jesus Christ. :(
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Bootstrap

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:19 pm
:arrow: Woodson remembered when Black families used to be a model for the rest of the nation.
He said, “From1930-1940, during America’s 10 years of depression, when racism was enshrined in law, elderly people could walk safely in their community without fear of assault :arrow: because of our faith in Christ and also our marriage—

:arrow: we had the highest marriage rate of any group…that has been our history.”

:arrow: Ultimately, a spiritual renewal is what is needed to turn things, including fatherlessness, around. ..

If these desirable things are true, they were true IN SPITE OF the history of slavery. Which Jesus Christ promises.
It causes a person to wonder, “What happened that was so much worse than slavery, that caused so much damage?” :shock:
Or even if it was not worse than slavery, what perpetuates these problems? And what can we do about it?

Bell and Crenshaw seem to have started CRT, I'm inclined to let them define it. Here's what Crenshaw says:
It’s an approach to grappling with a history of white supremacy that rejects the belief that what’s in the past is in the past, and that the laws and systems that grow from that past are detached from it.
Both Crenshaw and Bell are interested in law and the justice system and how they affect black Americans. To me, there seems to be a strong ideology among some conservatives that says we must not be allowed to believe that these systems disadvantage blacks in any way. To me, it seems pretty obvious that they do. And so does the public school system. And this is the way most blacks feel:

Image

This is their reality. Many people seem to be saying we need to stop letting them speak. I think that's what the current rage about CRT is all about. I don't think that's the right thing to do.

I'm not saying CRT gets all of this right, but I do think they are looking at important questions. And if we are willing to listen to American political conservatism, then looking at additional secular non-Christian viewpoints like CRT seems reasonable, we need to look at various points of view to see what we can learn from them.

Or just focus on building the Kingdom. Perhaps with our black brothers and sisters, in ways that display the unity associated with the full Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Szdfan

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Szdfan »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:04 pm Not directly. I think most people just don't know where the information they consume comes from. But why is it that people have such strong opinions about Critical Race Theory when the media decides to make it a topic, and why is it that people with such strong opinions have not read what they are criticizing?
I thin there's a reason for that. I think a lot of this involves manufactured political outrage. There's a whole ecosystem for manufacturing this outrage, and Fox plays a key role in how it works, so does You Tube. When a new outrage shows up on MN, I can reliably find it on Fox. You know other people who reliably channel this political outrage, and the constant drumbeat of this political outrage seems to be a big part of what some see as a conservative identity. Challenging the latest outrage seems to drive people nuts.
I used to play a game with myself to see how long it would take for something to show up on Fox News or within the broader conservative media infrastructure before it would show up on MN/MD. Usually a couple of days to under a week. There’s a pretty clear relationship, even if it’s not a direct line.
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temporal1

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by temporal1 »

It’s Falco’s thread, maybe i’m not sufficiently on topic, but i don’t believe i’ve referred to CRT, other than to say, so much of today’s talking points smell strongly of organized political blocs, now possibly at cult levels, and to beware joining in.

i just do not see anything of Jesus suggesting organizing for political muscle is “The Way.” :-|

i avoid referring to folks like VB or TS as black men, it makes me sad it’s an issue, i see them as thinking intelligent men, VB reflects he studies+loves Jesus Christ. i see it’s now a thing to capitalize “B” - understandably, not my decision. i wouldn’t choose it, and i suspect it’s just part of assigning markers to determine which political tribe a person falls into. more mind numbing division, not helpful.

i’m not sure about TS, he’s an economist (expert with data) and more, not sure if he’s Christian. altho i once listened to him speak about the value of Christianity .. i’m unsure of his personal beliefs.

i’ll leave it to FU to decide if i’m off topic.
Szd
I used to play a game with myself to see how long it would take for something to show up on Fox News or within the broader conservative media infrastructure before it would show up on MN/MD. Usually a couple of days to under a week. There’s a pretty clear relationship, even if it’s not a direct line.

Even for a game, it only makes sense if you also track mainstream lib media. every time i see something i sigh and wonder how long until it shows up on forum. i pray it doesn’t. no game, no tracking. like the sun rising ..
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MaxPC

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by MaxPC »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:59 am
temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:25 am Of course it sounds far-fetched. But. :? :? i’d like to listen to VB and/or Thomas Sowell speak to it. Possibly they have.
I have just ordered Vouddie Baucham's new book, Fault Lines. It's on this topic of CRT. I will probably be sharing insights from it sometime next week or the following week. 8-)
I look forward to your thoughts on that book. I hope to order it as well. I have enjoyed Voddie Baucham's Youtube videos. He is quite well versed in theology and its Scriptural foundations. He also addresses CRT from the "effects" it is having on those who ascribe to it. Those who adhere to it may not fully understand the original CRT premise but that does not stop them from spinning out their own definition. Once a concept is let loose into the wide world, it can mutate and change like a virus if it is discussed enough. That fact does not invalidate the newer definitions any more than a mutation of a virus would be invalidated.
Last edited by MaxPC on Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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temporal1

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by temporal1 »

A couple of reports out of New Hampshire. (Public schools, not churches)

“ ‘I won’t be pathologized for being White’: Man resigns, shreds school district over ‘white privilege’ training“
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/06/30 ... g-1096526/

“21st Century Program Coordinator resigns, citing ‘white privilege training’
https://manchesterinklink.com/21st-cent ... -training/
i wrote:
We’ve got the internet, and we don’t know how to use it. :-|
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justme

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by justme »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:45 pm i’ll leave it to FU to decide if i’m off topic.
just a request.
please don't shorten falco's name by using those 2 letters together.
i read it as something less than desirable. and i'm guessing if i do, then others do as well.
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Szdfan

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Szdfan »

justme wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:50 pm
temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:45 pm i’ll leave it to FU to decide if i’m off topic.
just a request.
please don't shorten falco's name by using those 2 letters together.
i read it as something less than desirable. and i'm guessing if i do, then others do as well.
Some of us might be giggling because we're twelve.
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