What are your thoughts re Hegelian dialectic?

[Bootstrap]

Here's what I mean about posturing.

Nobody in this thread seems to have read Hegel, nobody is even trying to quote anything Russell Moore or JD Greear said, these teachers are clearly against both abortion and gay marriage, I suspect that their may be one of few here who have listened to their sermons and podcasts.

Instead, lots of conservative chest thumping and moralizing against people who don't believe these claims without evidence and don't think the Southern Baptist Convention has the same problems as MC-USA and the Catholic Church.

I don't think Jesus would support abortion or gay sex and marriage, but I don't think he would support this either. Isn't this more or less exactly what Jesus found offensive in the Pharisees?

[temporal1]

Here's what I mean about posturing.

Nobody in this thread seems to have read Hegel, nobody is even trying to quote anything Russell Moore or JD Greear said, these teachers are clearly against both abortion and gay marriage, I suspect that their may be one of few here who have listened to their sermons and podcasts.

Instead, lots of conservative chest thumping and moralizing against people who don't believe these claims without evidence and don't think the Southern Baptist Convention has the same problems as MC-USA and the Catholic Church.

I don't think Jesus would support abortion or gay sex and marriage, but I don't think he would support this either. Isn't this more or less exactly what Jesus found offensive in the Pharisees?

Early in this thread, i think you stated you don’t know much about SBC, neither do i. so, i’m staying out of it.
however, you are sharing your “suspicions” of what SBC may be struggling with .. how is this different from what any other has posted in this thread? beliefs and opinions. discussion. suspicions.

informal discussion allows opinions - including errors.
Robert has spoken to this, probably in his 1st Amendment thread. not sure.

[MaxPC]

In Hd, the iconoclast and intemperate are the first to scream "Pharisee" when exposed to authentic Biblical teaching. They seek to do what they want and still get a "get out of hell free" card. The Bible makes it clear that repentance and conversion is necessary.

Yet as has been seen repeatedly, the liberal iconoclasts are pharisaical in their insistence on their own ideas. Jesus is the only way to our salvation and it is in following Him we heed His word as set forth in the Bible.

[Ken]

Here's what I mean about posturing.

Nobody in this thread seems to have read Hegel, nobody is even trying to quote anything Russell Moore or JD Greear said, these teachers are clearly against both abortion and gay marriage, I suspect that their may be one of few here who have listened to their sermons and podcasts.

Instead, lots of conservative chest thumping and moralizing against people who don't believe these claims without evidence and don't think the Southern Baptist Convention has the same problems as MC-USA and the Catholic Church.

I don't think Jesus would support abortion or gay sex and marriage, but I don't think he would support this either. Isn't this more or less exactly what Jesus found offensive in the Pharisees?

I've actually read Hegel and none of it applies to anything here.

The SBC is bleeding members due to its racism, sexism, pattern of covering up abuse, overt partisan politicization and anti-LGBT policies. Not because some secret cabal of Hegelian conspirators is implementing some dialectical master plan to undermine the church. What percentages you want to assign to those different reasons for decline is, I suspect, anyone's guess. For most it is probably a combination and depends on where they are coming from. For professional women it is probably the sexism and history of abuse. For non-white members is is likely the racism. For young members it is probably the overt partisan politicization and anti-LGBT slant. A lot of historically SBC churches are basically just taking the name off their door, shedding their SBC affiliation, and converting into non-denominational community churches. That is what happened with the church my daughter attended in college.

[PetrChelcicky]

I admit that I have not read Russell Moore or JD Greer. I didn't know that this was expected - the topic gives no hint of that.
I also admit that I have not read much of Hegel in original (it's hard to read), but as a student of a philosophy I have of course read a lot about Hegel and the Hegelians (on the Left and on the Right) - Hegel had a longtime influence on historical studies (and all cultural studies here in Germany were predominantly historical`for more than a century).
If there is a theory about a Hegelian conspiration in the SBC, could please someone explain it to me?
The idea of a Hegelian "conspiration" sounds strange, because Hegel was at his best with after-the fact-explanations like "it was bound to happen just as it has happened" or "In the long view it's the best outcome possible". The advice Hegel might give to an activist is "Go with the flow".

Isn't that perhaps what is now the controversy within the SBC? That the "reformers" argue "We have to go with flow"? Whereas the old-fashioned members stick to the noble Scots-Irish tradition of rebelliousmess and stubbornness: "We have to stand athwart history, yelling 'stop'"?

[Falco Underhill]

It's doubtful anyone here has read Hegel in the original because most of us don't speak/read German. (Including me) Hegel is notoriously difficult to understand even for those who do read German and Hegelian scholars who do read it notoriously take pride in that obscurity as though it put them in a class of their own. Most of those who do understand it have help from interpreters. (Including me)

When I said "Hegelians go in first to make way for the openly leftward" I was thinking of what happened in the Catholic Church. My point was IF they went in first in this case it would have served the same purpose. I doubt very much it happened that way in this case.

What i have said is there is obviously some organized effort to push a neo-Marxist agenda via CRT and Intersectionality within the SBC. No one in this thread has denied that.

As i understand it, Marxism and Hegelianism are inseparable insofar as Marxism uses the methods and dialectical theories of Hegel to suit its own purposes.

For anyone who wants to know the basics, Hegel's methods are summed up very well on this Wikipedia page —

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegelia ... 20idealism.

From the article —

The Leftists (Hegelians) accentuated the anti-Christian tendencies of Hegel's system and developed schools of materialism, socialism, rationalism, and pantheism. They included Ludwig Feuerbach, Karl Marx, Bruno Bauer, and David Strauss.

[Falco Underhill]

Regarding the effect of "synodality" on the Catholic Church -

Church Implosion Right on Schedule — https://international.la-croix.com/amp/ ... dule/14500

Excerpt —

In fact,, in some ways, Francis seems to be deliberately hastening its inevitable collapse by implementing the principles and methods outlined in gaudium (EG), his vision and blueprint for Church renewal and reform.

Note that this was written by a "Catholic" supporter of this implosion. Note also the woke revolutionary lingo used throughout the article. The goal is to turn the Church into a kind of democracy.

2 Timothy 4:3 ? The itching ears synodality right on schedule?

[Falco Underhill]

An excerpt from Implosion of the Church Right on Schedule.

Francis is effectively laying the foundation for the deconstruction of the current model by patiently planting the seeds for the Church's structural conversion by baptizing and employing four, key sociological principles (EG 222-237): -

Time is greater than space.

Unity prevails over conflict.

Realities are more important than ideas.

The whole is greater than the parts.

Here i suspect is an example of that obscurity Hegelians are often so proud of, so in parentheses I interpret these "principles" according to basic Hegelian dialectics.

Time is greater than space- (a vague reference to history and its dialectical movement which transcends momentary events in space-time.)

Unity prevails over conflict- (reference to Hegelian "synthesis" in which conflicts are resolved, unity restored)

Realities are more important than ideas- (a central theme of both Hegel and Marx. What it ultimately means is contemplative thought is irrational. Only thought put into action - specificallly revolutionary action - is truly rational.)

The whole is greater than the parts (Those who stubbornly insist on their principles after the conflict has been resolved in a new synthesis can safely be ignored. The synthesis is a divine movement in history. Resistance is therefore futile.)

Note: I admit I've got no "proof" for this, since she doesn't explain it at all.
This is simply what I suspect.

Even if I'm wrong, what on earth does this philosophical mumbo jumbo have to do with the Bible?

[Ken]

If there is a theory about a Hegelian conspiration in the SBC, could please someone explain it to me?
The idea of a Hegelian "conspiration" sounds strange, because Hegel was at his best with after-the fact-explanations like "it was bound to happen just as it has happened" or "In the long view it's the best outcome possible". The advice Hegel might give to an activist is "Go with the flow".

If you scroll back up to the original post you will find that the author of the linked article (Josh Buice) made that exact claim. That there is some sort of master Hegelian-style (Marxist) conspiracy happening within the SBC. He is also one of the ultra-conservative SBC leaders who is now threatening to take his group of followers with him and leave the conference to form a more conservative alternative: https://g3min.org/the-synthesis-moment-for-the-sbc/

To wit:

Now, at this point, ask yourself the following questions. A few years ago when you had never heard about critical theory and egalitarianism was a battle of the past—how did we move from that point to where we are today? Did the Board members of once trusted seminaries become left-leaning and progressive by accident? Were professors who promote men like James Cone and ideas like CRT/I hired by pure accident? Was the Beth Moore moment of the SBC culturally produced or was it purposeful? Was the MLK50 event really designed to create unity among different ethnicities within the SBC? What purpose did J.D. Greear serve as the president of the SBC? . . .

and...

The SBC stands at a synthesis moment. A small number of people speak for a vast number of SBC churches. A smaller number of people serve in leadership positions in the SBC and control the purse strings of a large pool of money that flows through the SBC channel every single year. Some SBC leaders have postured themselves as conservative and have learned how to use “conservative” language in order to satisfy the churches and pastors of the SBC while embracing dangerous ideologies and using a dialectical method to lead the SBC down a leftward path.

and....

People are being manipulated by ideas and techniques within the SBC and unless the ideas are exposed and immediate correction of course is taken, this agenda will continue to move the SBC in a progressive direction. Follow the dialectical method (thesis, anthesis, synthesis) and remember, Beth Moore is the target they want you to aim for in this moment. She serves as a distraction and necessary chaos in order to continue moving the agenda forward. Remember, this social justice movement is not about women preachers or Beth Moore just as Black Lives Matter was never about black lives. It’s about their progressive politics and attack on the nuclear family. The same can be said of the cultural controversies and figures within the SBC social justice agenda. There is something more beneath the surface. Some are pawns and others are kings, but make no mistake about it—we have not arrived at this point by mistake.

[Falco Underhill]

Correction: I see those four principals come from Evangelii Gaudium and that I spoke too soon.

Having read them, however, I wonder why the author of The Implosion thinks they were planted there to deconstruct the hierarchical structure of the Church?