The Nicene Creed

[Valerie]

This is redundancy at best; fruitless at worst.
If Christians cared about others temptations, shortcomings, sufferings, and burdens as much as they did their extra-biblical theological interpretation, what a Church we might be.

Because this controversy was settled long ago, Christians were/are able to do just that. It's not as if its been either or, but both and all.

[PeterG]

If Christians cared about others temptations, shortcomings, sufferings, and burdens as much as they did their extra-biblical theological interpretation, what a Church we might be.

I believe that diminishing the deity of Jesus is a temptation and shortcoming.

[Wade]

"Did the first Chritians worship Jesus?" is an exciting, easy, and worthwhile read. Highly recommend.

I've never read the book but here's the answer:

Matthew 28:17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Don't be excessively simple. Those Baptists are getting to you

Could be getting to me...

Or it could have been the visit with lesterb's son a couple weeks ago where we touched a bit on this.

[Bootstrap]

Are we conflating three things?

Many people who believe what the Bible teaches about Jesus and his divinity do not use the word Trinity or think in those terms. That concept is one step beyond what the Bible teaches, one way of explaining biblical teaching, and I am not sure whether to think of it as an analogy or a piece of systematic theology. I think of it as one way of understanding the full biblical teaching on God, and a good one, but not the only way. I prefer to keep returning to the Bible itself in the words that the Bible uses.

Many people who believe the Trinity is one good way or even the only good way to understand the biblical concept of God do not find the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed as important as others, perhaps because of the focus on theological propositions and the lack of emphasis on how we live out the Gospel.

Many people who find these creeds important do not feel the need to use them as a central part of a church service every week.

Some people believe that these creeds are so important that they should be used in every church service. Including my pastor, so we do this.

Surely there is room within biblical Christianity for all of these beliefs and practices. I disagree with most people in my church on this, it doesn't particularly affect our fellowship. A lot of this has to do with how we weigh church tradition and systematic theology against always returning to the text of the Bible.

[haithabu]

So do you think you can be saved while rejecting trinity doctrine? Yay or nay?

Here are the beliefs which are necessary for salvation:

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrwes 11:6

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:8,9

And add to that the litmus tests from I John which I listed in my previous post.

I don't choose to go beyond that.

[haithabu]

But I will say that whatever effect our beliefs have on our salvation, it all revolves around what we think of Jesus. What does it mean to confess Jesus? Which Jesus are we confessing?

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

This is the good confession.

Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ...” (1Timothy 6:12-13).

[Valerie]

Are we conflating three things?

Many people who believe what the Bible teaches about Jesus and his divinity do not use the word Trinity or think in those terms. That concept is one step beyond what the Bible teaches, one way of explaining biblical teaching, and I am not sure whether to think of it as an analogy or a piece of systematic theology. I think of it as one way of understanding the full biblical teaching on God, and a good one, but not the only way. I prefer to keep returning to the Bible itself in the words that the Bible uses.

Many people who believe the Trinity is one good way or even the only good way to understand the biblical concept of God do not find the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed as important as others, perhaps because of the focus on theological propositions and the lack of emphasis on how we live out the Gospel.

Many people who find these creeds important do not feel the need to use them as a central part of a church service every week.

Some people believe that these creeds are so important that they should be used in every church service. Including my pastor, so we do this.

Surely there is room within biblical Christianity for all of these beliefs and practices. I disagree with most people in my church on this, it doesn't particularly affect our fellowship. A lot of this has to do with how we weigh church tradition and systematic theology against always returning to the text of the Bible.

True, the 'word' Gelassenheit isn't in the Bible either (or is it in the German translation)but it's doctrine is important. The Trinity doctrine served/serves a purpose but again, it was taught way before the Nicene Council & Creed- its importance helps people not wander from its truth about Christ- Othodoxy in addition to Orthopraxy, both were always necessary

[Bootstrap]

True, the 'word' Gelassenheit isn't in the Bible either (or is it in the German translation)but it's doctrine is important. The Trinity doctrine served/serves a purpose but again, it was taught way before the Nicene Council & Creed- its importance helps people not wander from its truth about Christ- Othodoxy in addition to Orthopraxy, both were always necessary

You can certainly be a Christian without knowing the word Gelassenheit. Same holds for the word Trinity. Both words have been helpful to many Christians, but they derive their authority from what the Bible says, not the other way around.

Personally, I find it very helpful to use the same language as the Bible when describing what it says. The Bible teaches what we really need to know. And the foundation is Jesus.

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

So let's not confuse the foundation with anything else. On the other hand, it's important to know the fullness of who Jesus Christ is because he is the foundation. The Bible tells us much more about that than the Creeds do.

[Bootstrap]

For what it's worth, one of my main hesitations with the Trinity involves biblical statements about things that it does not account for - the Sevenfold Spirit of God in the Revelation, the Glory of the Lord in Ezekiel, and other imagery related to God.

I am not sure that the Bible gives us a neat, simple, and complete explanation of who God is. I'm not sure that we would understand it if it did. I do think the Bible tells us quite clearly that Jesus is fully God and fully human, telling us about his death and resurrection and that he will come again and reign forever.

But I'm not sure that the Trinity is enough to summarize what the Bible says about God. And I suspect we will know more about God when we meet him face to face. Our brains aren't up to this now.

[Reflecting]

For what it's worth, one of my main hesitations with the Trinity involves biblical statements about things that it does not account for - the Sevenfold Spirit of God in the Revelation, the Glory of the Lord in Ezekiel, and other imagery related to God.

I am not sure that the Bible gives us a neat, simple, and complete explanation of who God is. I'm not sure that we would understand it if it did. I do think the Bible tells us quite clearly that Jesus is fully God and fully human, telling us about his death and resurrection and that he will come again and reign forever.

But I'm not sure that the Trinity is enough to summarize what the Bible says about God. And I suspect we will know more about God when we meet him face to face. Our brains aren't up to this now.

Gives me a bunch to chew on.
I definitely agree that God is far bigger than we can comprehend! <3