Lisa Miller case

[Soloist]

It would seem she has two choices. Pursue some sort of plea deal. Or take the case to trial and try to mount some sort of religious liberty defense and risk a much longer sentence.

I would be curious how you would see her getting a longer sentence? the max as stated by the legal release was 5 years or are you simply suggesting she would get 5 years rather then say 2 or three?

[mike]

Sentence lengths for others involved in this case:

Timo Miller was sentenced to time served (several months, not sure how long) plus one year of probation.
Ken Miller was sentenced to 27 months.
Philip Zhodiates was sentenced to 3 years.

It would seem odd for Lisa to get less than 3 years, the sentence given to the person who allegedly helped her leave the country. But the maximum is five, so my guess is that those are are the high and low ends of the likely sentence.

[Ken]

It would seem she has two choices. Pursue some sort of plea deal. Or take the case to trial and try to mount some sort of religious liberty defense and risk a much longer sentence.

I would be curious how you would see her getting a longer sentence? the max as stated by the legal release was 5 years or are you simply suggesting she would get 5 years rather then say 2 or three?

The whole point of plea bargaining is to get a shorter sentence, otherwise no one would do it and everyone would roll the dice and take their cases to trial because there is nothing to lose.

By taking the case to trial she wouldn't get a longer sentence than the 5 year statutory maximum. She would get a longer sentence relative to what her attorneys could likely negotiate through a plea bargain. Judges also tend to be harsher in sentencing for defendants that took their case to trial as opposed to plea bargaining. Especially if a shorter sentence was offered.

If the government even offers a plea deal (sometimes they don't) then the plea deal is almost by definition going to be a reduced sentence relative to what she would face by taking the case to trial. That is the incentive to take the plea.

[Ken]

Sentence lengths for others involved in this case:

Timo Miller was sentenced to time served (several months, not sure how long) plus one year of probation.
Ken Miller was sentenced to 27 months.
Philip Zhodiates was sentenced to 3 years.

It would seem odd for Lisa to get less than 3 years, the sentence given to the person who allegedly helped her leave the country. But the maximum is five, so my guess is that those are are the high and low ends of the likely sentence.

I'm not sure you can make any assumptions. Each case is going to have a different US attorney, a different judge, and a different set of facts. Sentencing guidelines may have changed over the intervening years. There may be different pressures on the court today due to overcrowded dockets, or overcrowded prisons and Covid. So I don't think you can just point to those cases from years ago and assume this case will follow the same pattern.

[mike]

Sentence lengths for others involved in this case:

Timo Miller was sentenced to time served (several months, not sure how long) plus one year of probation.
Ken Miller was sentenced to 27 months.
Philip Zhodiates was sentenced to 3 years.

It would seem odd for Lisa to get less than 3 years, the sentence given to the person who allegedly helped her leave the country. But the maximum is five, so my guess is that those are are the high and low ends of the likely sentence.

I'm not sure you can make any assumptions. Each case is going to have a different US attorney, a different judge, and a different set of facts. Sentencing guidelines may have changed over the intervening years. There may be different pressures on the court today due to overcrowded dockets, or overcrowded prisons and Covid. So I don't think you can just point to those cases from years ago and assume this case will follow the same pattern.

Of course. A guess is only that. Which is what makes it important to pray for God's grace and for leniency from the legal system, but at the same time to be prepared for the worst that could happen.

[Soloist]

In exchange for my daughter being free from alleged abuse or raised in a Christian environment, I'd do 5 years gladly.

I think that is going to end up being the primary outcome that the secular world would seek to raise the penalty.

[Ken]

In exchange for my daughter being free from alleged abuse or raised in a Christian environment, I'd do 5 years gladly.

I think that is going to end up being the primary outcome that the secular world would seek to raise the penalty.

Five years in prison isn't going to get the job done. You will still need to take the child and flee the the country for some destination without an extradition treaty with the US until the child turns 18. That might mean a decade or more living overseas.

Not many people are going to do that. And the ones who do are mostly going to be dual citizens or immigrants with international family ties, who are going to abduct their children and flee back to Iran or Saudi Arabia or some such place. I don't see many Americans with no international ties doing what Lisa Miller did. That's an enormous step.

[Soloist]

Five years in prison isn't going to get the job done. You will still need to take the child and flee the the country for some destination without an extradition treaty with the US until the child turns 18. That might mean a decade or more living overseas.

Not many people are going to do that. And the ones who do are mostly going to be dual citizens or immigrants with international family ties, who are going to abduct their children and flee back to Iran or Saudi Arabia or some such place. I don't see many Americans with no international ties doing what Lisa Miller did. That's an enormous step.

Like it or not, we have been identified as having resources beyond the US government's ability to control. So... we should be prepared for others at some point.

[temporal1]

This case should be thrown out because it’s based on 1 parent and 1 next friend.
i’m not sure how that would impact the others charged. i would think it would change things for them.
i don’t know how.

The case was bungled from the start. It needs to be straightened out to the best of the court’s ability.
Not the first or last time for big court errors. Sometimes judges just apologize.

Of course the plaintiffs will do everything possible to continue to push it through. They have no other concern than prevailing in court. Not seeking God’s approval. Not seeking morality. Not concerned about the child. The child is a pawn.

If not, from the start, other choices could have been made out of court. Before courts were involved.
But, no. It’s all about prevailing in court. The rest are trifles.

- - - - -

in 20 years or so, JJ may have a change of heart about her actions, others in similar situations have.
like Jane Roe, and Vashti McCollum. what seems so important in earthly courts in the moment, can change in time.
unfortunately, courts/laws are not altered because of it. harm is done to untold numbers as a result.

[temporal1]

From all accounts, there seems to be no question Lisa Miller ignored a court order.
That doesn’t equate to meaning the order was correct.

In the case i cited, Page 3, near me, the bio mother submitted to the court order and allowed her/their 2 boys to go with their bio father, she knew the boys were in acute danger. She begged the court not to allow unsupervised visitation.
Their bio father lawfully took them, unlawfully killed them and committed suicide. Violence happens ‘way too often in family disputes.

The mother survives, with $10 million (settlement)?
i have no doubt she would prefer not a dime from anyone, but her 2 beautiful living boys, returned unharmed.

The courts aren’t clairvoyant. They cannot accurately predict the future. They error.

i strongly prefer staying OUT of courts.
But when forced into them, decisions are forced on how to proceed. Courts do not “like” laypersons representing themselves. Sometimes, lawyers are assigned/required, when unwanted. Some appeals are automatic. etc.

The legal world is complex.
i would advise NEVER concluding anyone’s opinion, including media of any description, is full, final, correct. In present courts, it sure appears, NOTHING is ever full, final, correct.

Some light reading on “when courts are wrong”
https://www.google.com/search?q=when+co ... e&ie=UTF-8

Lisa Miller disobeyed a court order. A grave decision. A stand-alone complication.
That does not auto-equate to the court was correct, or that JJ should prevail, based only on LM’s decision.

Getting this untangled correctly is important, because future cases of any sort of non-legal-parental adult involved with a child could end up in “international kidnapping” courts, because they say so. There are loads of people who would love having parental privileges of children they love, but are not legal parents. Chaos in courts.

International kidnapping cases between authentic legal parents are horrible and important.
The waters should not be muddied further by “friends”/non parental others attempting to appropriate legal language
“by osmosis.”

Isabella is a now legal adult, alive and well.

sometimes i wonder if her bio father will ever be known? esp because of DNA, it’s not an impossibility.