Inside and Outside the Cup

[Bootstrap]

This passage seems to reference judgement day.

You seem to be attempting to separate the good deeds these people have done from their "practice of lawlessness on the side". I'm suggesting these people believe they are living good lives (not lawlessness) and doing good deeds. I'm also suggesting the lawlessness Jesus mentions here is the fact that they don't take seriously all of what Jesus and the Apostles taught and think they can get away with doing a few good things while overlooking other things Jesus and the rest of the NT teaches.

I don't think I am. I think we are both saying the same thing here.

To me, Jesus says that cleaning the inside of the cup is the way to clean the outside of the cup. Good deeds are very much part of what he talks about when he talks about the inside of the cup, though, a changed heart also means deeds. Focusing on appearances is the wrong approach because cleaning the outside of the cup does not result in a clean inside.

I can certainly think about a passage in the NT that talks about how women should and should not dress and I believe every Christian woman should take this to heart and dress accordingly. Do you believe Jesus, at judgement day, will overlook what the NT teaches about this?

I think every Scripture matters, and we should be obedient. I don't think the emphasis in this verse is on wearing a particular cultural kind of clothing, though. And I think this verse emphasizes good deeds rather than a specific kind of clothing.

[Neto]

....
I think every Scripture matters, and we should be obedient. I don't think the emphasis in this verse is on wearing a particular cultural kind of clothing, though. And I think this verse emphasizes good deeds rather than a specific kind of clothing.

I would suggest that this passage teaches against one specific type of clothing - ostentatious or 'showy' clothing (which is also 'bad deeds', revealing a corrupt heart), and FOR clothing that is modest, both in cost AND in non-showiness. The latter, I believe, includes unnecessarily revealing clothing. (That is, 'modest' in the full range of the meaning of the word.)

[GaryK]

This passage seems to reference judgement day.

You seem to be attempting to separate the good deeds these people have done from their "practice of lawlessness on the side". I'm suggesting these people believe they are living good lives (not lawlessness) and doing good deeds. I'm also suggesting the lawlessness Jesus mentions here is the fact that they don't take seriously all of what Jesus and the Apostles taught and think they can get away with doing a few good things while overlooking other things Jesus and the rest of the NT teaches.

I don't think I am. I think we are both saying the same thing here.

To me, Jesus says that cleaning the inside of the cup is the way to clean the outside of the cup. Good deeds are very much part of what he talks about when he talks about the inside of the cup, though, a changed heart also means deeds. Focusing on appearances is the wrong approach because cleaning the outside of the cup does not result in a clean inside.

I can certainly think about a passage in the NT that talks about how women should and should not dress and I believe every Christian woman should take this to heart and dress accordingly. Do you believe Jesus, at judgement day, will overlook what the NT teaches about this?

I think every Scripture matters, and we should be obedient. I don't think the emphasis in this verse is on wearing a particular cultural kind of clothing, though. And I think this verse emphasizes good deeds rather than a specific kind of clothing.

I don't think I mentioned anything about this verse being about wearing a "particular cultural kind of clothing" or a "specific kind of clothing". Those are your words.

Just because the verse doesn't talk about a specific kind of cultural clothing, in no way minimizes the fact that the way Christian women dress is important. Some Christian women really do feel it's important to dress modestly because of passages like this. I would say the vast majority of conservative Anabaptist women who dress modestly, have clean insides of the cup and the outside reflects that reality.

[Bootstrap]

....
I think every Scripture matters, and we should be obedient. I don't think the emphasis in this verse is on wearing a particular cultural kind of clothing, though. And I think this verse emphasizes good deeds rather than a specific kind of clothing.

I would suggest that this passage teaches against one specific type of clothing - ostentatious or 'showy' clothing (which is also 'bad deeds', revealing a corrupt heart), and FOR clothing that is modest, both in cost AND in non-showiness. The latter, I believe, includes unnecessarily revealing clothing. (That is, 'modest' in the full range of the meaning of the word.)

Yes, I agree.

[Bootstrap]

I would say the vast majority of conservative Anabaptist women who dress modestly, have clean insides of the cup and the outside reflects that reality.

You probably know a LOT more conservative Anabaptist women than I do. I was not making any claims about that.

[GaryK]

I would say the vast majority of conservative Anabaptist women who dress modestly, have clean insides of the cup and the outside reflects that reality.

You probably know a LOT more conservative Anabaptist women than I do. I was not making any claims about that.

Following are the kinds of statements you made earlier that prompted me to write this about conservative Anabaptist women who choose to dress modestly.

The booklet tends to imply that the true Christians are the cultural Christians, the ones that are easy to identify by the outside of the cup. I see absolutely nothing in the New Testament that teaches that.

and..

The New Testament talks about obedience, it does not talk about a "culture" of obedience, and especially not an externally observable set of cultural markers as something central to obedience. To me, the Martin booklet inserts additional phrases like "culture" into various things the Bible does say, then makes "culture" a primary thing, even though the Bible doesn't mention it at all.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

I think Jesus is saying we should focus on the inside of the cup, not the externals. The Pharisees had distinctive clothing, but Jesus does not encourage that:

Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

And that's the danger in focusing on the visible. It's so much easier to get the outside of the cup right. It's so easy to get approval from others for doing that.

[Bootstrap]

I would say the vast majority of conservative Anabaptist women who dress modestly, have clean insides of the cup and the outside reflects that reality.

You probably know a LOT more conservative Anabaptist women than I do. I was not making any claims about that.

Following are the kinds of statements you made earlier that prompted me to write this about conservative Anabaptist women who choose to dress modestly.

The booklet tends to imply that the true Christians are the cultural Christians, the ones that are easy to identify by the outside of the cup. I see absolutely nothing in the New Testament that teaches that.

and..

The New Testament talks about obedience, it does not talk about a "culture" of obedience, and especially not an externally observable set of cultural markers as something central to obedience. To me, the Martin booklet inserts additional phrases like "culture" into various things the Bible does say, then makes "culture" a primary thing, even though the Bible doesn't mention it at all.

Neither of those makes any claims about conservative Anabaptist women or conservative Anabaptists at all.

I am, however, disagreeing with John Martin's pamphlet, which implies that the New Testament is largely about creating an externally visible culture based on outside-the-cup cultural markers.

I think the New Testament is mostly about the kinds of things Jesus calls the inside of the cup, the things he stresses in the Sermon on the Mount. If we are called to build a culture, it is a culture of radical love to God and to others, a culture of serving, a culture of holiness. And yes, people will see it and give glory to God, but it doesn't start with the outside of the cup.

[GaryK]

You probably know a LOT more conservative Anabaptist women than I do. I was not making any claims about that.

Following are the kinds of statements you made earlier that prompted me to write this about conservative Anabaptist women who choose to dress modestly.

The booklet tends to imply that the true Christians are the cultural Christians, the ones that are easy to identify by the outside of the cup. I see absolutely nothing in the New Testament that teaches that.

and..

The New Testament talks about obedience, it does not talk about a "culture" of obedience, and especially not an externally observable set of cultural markers as something central to obedience. To me, the Martin booklet inserts additional phrases like "culture" into various things the Bible does say, then makes "culture" a primary thing, even though the Bible doesn't mention it at all.

Neither of those makes any claims about conservative Anabaptist women or conservative Anabaptists at all.

I am, however, disagreeing with John Martin's pamphlet, which implies that the New Testament is largely about creating an externally visible culture based on outside-the-cup cultural markers.

I think the New Testament is mostly about the kinds of things Jesus calls the inside of the cup, the things he stresses in the Sermon on the Mount. If we are called to build a culture, it is a culture of radical love to God and to others, a culture of serving, a culture of holiness. And yes, people will see it and give glory to God, but it doesn't start with the outside of the cup.

These were the more specific quotes I was referring to.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

I think Jesus is saying we should focus on the inside of the cup, not the externals. The Pharisees had distinctive clothing, but Jesus does not encourage that:

Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

And that's the danger in focusing on the visible. It's so much easier to get the outside of the cup right. It's so easy to get approval from others for doing that.

When you make such statements in response to your disagreement with John Martin, it's not very hard to connect the dots.

John Martin is a conservative Anabaptist who I know personally. I'm quite sure he would say that he is not putting "outside-the-cup cultural markers" ahead of inside the cup issues or that he believes the NT Kingdom starts with outside the cup issues.

I'd encourage you to call him up and discuss this with him. He loves to talk with people about the nature of Jesus' Kingdom.

[ken_sylvania]

I am, however, disagreeing with John Martin's pamphlet, which implies that the New Testament is largely about creating an externally visible culture based on outside-the-cup cultural markers.

I have not read the pamphlet, but this would be disturbing if true. Anything I have ever heard about John would lead me to think he believes no such thing.

Gary, you've read the pamphlet, right? Does John D. really say what Bootstrap is claiming?

[GaryK]

I am, however, disagreeing with John Martin's pamphlet, which implies that the New Testament is largely about creating an externally visible culture based on outside-the-cup cultural markers.

I have not read the pamphlet, but this would be disturbing if true. Anything I have ever heard about John would lead me to think he believes no such thing.

Gary, you've read the pamphlet, right? Does John D. really say what Bootstrap is claiming?

I haven't actually. But I have more confidence in John than to believe that is what he's implying.