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Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:52 pm
by Falco Knotwise
Okay, wasn’t sure. Did the priest say it before the Lord’s Prayer or after?
I read somewhere that although the priest said it in the Latin Mass it wasn’t necessarily considered a part of the Lord’s Prayer.
According to Wikipedia . . .
The Catholic Latin liturgical rites have never attached the doxology to the end of the Lord's Prayer. The doxology does appear in the Roman Rite Mass as revised in 1969.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27 ... 20embolism.
Also of interest . . .
The doxology takes up again the first three petitions of the Lord’s prayer: the glorification of his name, the coming of his reign, and the power of his saving will. But these prayers are now proclaimed as adoration and thanksgiving.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 2:29 pm
by Falco Knotwise
The doxology of the Lord’s Prayer has been included as an independent item by Latin Church Roman Catholics, especially in the Roman Rite of the Mass. However, some Lutheran and Anglican books of prayer attach the doxology to the Lord’s Prayer. Apart from this slight difference, it remains the case that all Christians identify with this doxology.
https://www.english.op.org/godzdogz/our ... ever-amen/
See? It was considered an “independent item” not “attached to the Lord’s Prayer” in the Latin rite according to several sources I read. Splitting hairs, perhaps.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:43 pm
by JayP
It's not splitting hairs. And context of every conversation is important.
IMHO, why was it added to the Novus Ordo literally as part of the prayer? Because of the desire to Protestantize the mass.
Max, if you are ready, what's your church affiliation if you don't mind saying?
I was disappointed in your phraseology that it is said in every mass. No, it's not.
I go to Mass every Sunday and we never say it. The Mass I attend, and the Mass I know that many attend in other places does not.
You know the English translation for Novus Ordo?
It actually translates into one English word. Banal.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:52 pm
by mike
MennoNet has fully arrived once we have Catholics here arguing with each other.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:54 pm
by Soloist
mike wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:52 pm
MennoNet has fully arrived once we have Catholics here arguing with each other.
It underscores the point that unity doesn’t exist in the Catholic groups either.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 5:38 pm
by Sudsy
Although we didn't say this prayer in the Pentecostal church I was raised in, the public school I went to as a boy said this prayer each morning, including the 'Thy Kingdom --' last line. This prayer was stopped up here in Ontario, Canada in 1988.
Zylberberg v. Sudbury Board of Education (Director) The Ontario Court of Appeal ruled that the use of the Lord's Prayer in opening exercises in public schools offended the Charter s. 2(a). 1988.
I'm not certain if the Catholic school system in Ontario recites this prayer each day but suspect they do and if so, good for them.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:24 pm
by barnhart
mike wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:52 pm
MennoNet has fully arrived once we have Catholics here arguing with each other.
A few years ago there were more Orthodox.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 10:05 am
by MaxPC
Falco Knotwise wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:52 pm
Okay, wasn’t sure. Did the priest say it before the Lord’s Prayer or after?
I read somewhere that although the priest said it in the Latin Mass it wasn’t necessarily considered a part of the Lord’s Prayer.
According to Wikipedia . . .
The Catholic Latin liturgical rites have never attached the doxology to the end of the Lord's Prayer. The doxology does appear in the Roman Rite Mass as revised in 1969.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27 ... 20embolism.
Also of interest . . .
The doxology takes up again the first three petitions of the Lord’s prayer: the glorification of his name, the coming of his reign, and the power of his saving will. But these prayers are now proclaimed as adoration and thanksgiving.
Firstly, I feel it is important to note that Wiki is not a very good source for liturgical information. As those articles are written by self-appointed "experts" I take them with a nano-grain of salt.
The Mass itself is one prayer with two sections: the Liturgy of the Word (Bible readings) and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Our Father is prayed during the latter. It is all one and the same. The only difference between Ante-VII and Post VII is who prays the doxology.
At this point in history, rather than arguing about the Wiki of Misinformation, I feel that Catholics should stand together to keep watch over the attempted incursions of abomination that is infesting (ht to Josh) the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Another "listening" session is scheduled next Autumn for the Synod on Synodality (ridiculous name, that but they did not ask me therefore ....). I am encouraging my fellow Catholics to participate in those sessions to give their input on the direction of the Church.
mike wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:52 pm
MennoNet has fully arrived once we have Catholics here arguing with each other.
Catholics have always argued and strained at gnats. The first disciples did likewise. I do believe it is a universal human failing or virtue, whichever side of the fence you sit.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:44 pm
by Sudsy
I have read where one of, if not the first, occurrence of using this doxology is in the Didache. The Didache has a number of early Christian practises that are not found explicitly in the New Testament (i.e. particulars regarding water baptism).
As for this doxology the Didache reads as follows:
Chapter 8. Concerning Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer)
But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; Matthew 6:16 for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Neither pray as the hypocrites; but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Yours is the power and the glory forever. Thrice in the day thus pray.
Interesting to me how the parts I bolded are not in the NT as such. It is not to fast 'with the hypocrites' but as the NT says 'do not be like the hypocrites' NKJV version. I believe it wasn't about the days of the week they fast but rather the way they fasted to be seen of men as holy.
And the direction to pray this prayer as stated 3 times a day. Is this a common practise anywhere today ?
This got me wondering how much current church practise is still followed by some according to the Didache as in things such as fasting 1 or 2 days prior to water baptism and other early practises.
I realize that all Christian churches today have practises not found explicitly in NT scripture. However, it seems to me, of the early church practises we read about in the NT, we all cherry pick those that are still applicable and those not. Often those not explicitly described in the NT are areas of distinction resulting in all these factions in the family of God.
Thankfully God is building His Church, even though we hold to our differences.
Re: The Lord's Prayer
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 1:28 pm
by MaxPC
Sudsy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:44 pm
I have read where one of, if not the first, occurrence of using this doxology is in the Didache. The Didache has a number of early Christian practises that are not found explicitly in the New Testament (i.e. particulars regarding water baptism).
As for this doxology the Didache reads as follows:
Chapter 8. Concerning Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer)
But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; Matthew 6:16 for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Neither pray as the hypocrites; but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Yours is the power and the glory forever. Thrice in the day thus pray.
Interesting to me how the parts I bolded are not in the NT as such. It is not to fast 'with the hypocrites' but as the NT says 'do not be like the hypocrites' NKJV version. I believe it wasn't about the days of the week they fast but rather the way they fasted to be seen of men as holy.
And the direction to pray this prayer as stated 3 times a day. Is this a common practise anywhere today ?
This got me wondering how much current church practise is still followed by some according to the Didache as in things such as fasting 1 or 2 days prior to water baptism and other early practises.
I realize that all Christian churches today have practises not found explicitly in NT scripture. However, it seems to me, of the early church practises we read about in the NT, we all cherry pick those that are still applicable and those not. Often those not explicitly described in the NT are areas of distinction resulting in all these factions in the family of God.
Thankfully God is building His Church, even though we hold to our differences.
Sudsy, you note some excellent points. One of my reference Bibles is the
Didache Bible in addition to the use of The Didache texts.
I quite like the Didache for its first hand authors who provide both context and elaborative information. It does seem to fill in quite a few alleged "blanks" in the New Testament of which I believe that the NT may have been assuming certain levels of comprehension among the readers. After all, those first few centuries they believed that Christ's return was imminent. An effort within Catholicism is to return to The Didache in discerning direction for the Church. I personally see this as both worthy and essential.
Regarding the praying 3x/day of the Lord's Prayer/Our Father:
In my experiences, I do not think I have ever seen this applied congregationally with any consistency. It seems to be a choice of personal devotion in this era.
Fasting: Even among those churches that value and teach fasting, again I do not see any real consistency in praxis among individuals. I believe that this is a loss for the simple reason that fasting is a valued accompaniment to prayer and preparation (and not a diet fad).
Sudsy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:44 pm Thankfully God is building His Church, even though we hold to our differences.
Spot on. Amen and amen.
For those interested in having a full text of The Didache, it may be downloaded in PDF form
here.