Covid-19 Vaccines and Christian Ethics

[nett]

I'm going with Philippians 1:6 when Paul said -

Ok, and I will counter with 1 Timothy 4

Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the later times some will desert the faith and occupy themselves with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings.

Do you think then that taking these shots is 'deserting the faith' or are you just speculating this to be a 'slippery slope' decision ?

In our church, vaccination choices have so far perfectly lined up with wordly drifting

[Sudsy]

Ok, and I will counter with 1 Timothy 4

Do you think then that taking these shots is 'deserting the faith' or are you just speculating this to be a 'slippery slope' decision ?

In our church, vaccination choices have so far perfectly lined up with wordly drifting

What kind of words are they drifting to use ? Sorry, I know you meant 'worldly'.

Joking aside for some they see taking shots as a good Christian testimony that they care about others. It is a good deed which we are called to do. Him that knoweth to do good but doeth it not, to him it is sin. So, as I originally posted, I see this as something for each to pray about and go with how they sense the Holy Spirit's leading.

I think we may have some differences on what we regard as 'worldly drifting'.

[Bootstrap]

I see this as something for each to pray about and go with how they sense the Holy Spirit's leading.

I think we may have some differences on what we regard as 'worldly drifting'.

I agree. But it's helpful to hear why people have reached the conclusions they have - we are all wrestling with the same ethical questions. I think I have a better understanding why Nett and Soloist have come to different positions than I have. I think I have more information to weigh when considering my own ethical choices. Which was the purpose of the thread.

[Sudsy]

I see this as something for each to pray about and go with how they sense the Holy Spirit's leading.

I think we may have some differences on what we regard as 'worldly drifting'.

I agree. But it's helpful to hear why people have reached the conclusions they have - we are all wrestling with the same ethical questions. I think I have a better understanding why Nett and Soloist have come to different positions than I have. I think I have more information to weigh when considering my own ethical choices. Which was the purpose of the thread.

I know I have a simple approach as I am not one wrestling with this as an ethical issue. But I don't mean to dissuade others but rather to express how I approach it. Others approach the Holy Spirit's leading in a different way than me, I realize that. So, carry on as you make your choices.

[joshuabgood]

I'm curious - does anyone think this is a salvation issue whether one takes the vaccine shots or not ?

What do you mean by salvation?

If you are believer in Christ (saved/born again/redeemed) and you take these shots, regardless of your reasons, do you think God will disown you as His child and instead of giving you eternal life in heaven, He will send you to hell ?

No.

[Soloist]

Asking on if the vaccine would condemn you to hell is a little bit like asking if a woman covering or not is a salvation issue. I believe that's really the wrong question. Direction matters more then individual one off choices.

There will be ex-murderers in heaven but there will not be murderers in heaven. If you promote abortion, I would have very sincere questions about your salvation.
(I am not saying if you receive the vaccine you are a murderer)

If I chose to accept the vaccine, my salvation would be in serious question. If Sudsy, who has no conviction, takes it, how is his salvation in question? He took it in good faith with a goal of promoting public health and has differing opinions than me on it. God is the ultimate judge and I am not.

My focus isn't on condemning anyone other than the doctors and nurses who are lying about the connection to fetal cells. Some do out of ignorance, others do intentionally. I have a very hard time believing that Finny is ignorant of the background of the vaccines as he declares them to be entirely synthetic. He ignores what has been spoken about (DNA is needed to make the RNA) and has stated the RNA is made in a vat and that no fetal cells are involved. The DNA is replicated in E-coli and this is publicly documented by several media sources explaining the manufacturing process during media tours of the plant. He basically condemns people who stand against vaccines as stupid. John, the other doctor, is not as harsh and admits to the older vaccines having the cells used, but says it doesn't matter. He could be ignorant... Wolf Miggiani agrees with me (at least last I spoke to him) to the accuracy of my data, but does not take the stance I do because he couldn't practice medicine. I respect him for being honest about it, unlike the other two doctors, who I am very open to talking to and having them defend their actions and if my assumptions are wrong, I would publicly state that. The voices clamoring to convince the uneasy or people on the fence that the vaccine is not ethically compromised are often full of lies. Philip Hess and his father (a doctor) would take a stand but not to the extent I do, more like Wolf.

I am taking a stand against a way of scientific progress founded on abortion science that will continue to get worse while we hand wave and do nothing but continue to use and benefit from it.
This might purely be my black and white mindset, but I cannot ignore that this is a massively growing industry without any sign of slowing or halting as the major Christian organizations do nothing but listen to think tanks designed to convince the masses of the ethical nature of a new product. Outside of 1 small (almost irrelevant) Catholic organization (COG), there is really no one taking a stand.

[joshuabgood]

Asking on if the vaccine would condemn you to hell is a little bit like asking if a woman covering or not is a salvation issue. I believe that's really the wrong question. Direction matters more then individual one off choices.

There will be ex-murderers in heaven but there will not be murderers in heaven. If you promote abortion, I would have very sincere questions about your salvation.
(I am not saying if you receive the vaccine you are a murderer)

If I chose to accept the vaccine, my salvation would be in serious question. If Sudsy, who has no conviction, takes it, how is his salvation in question? He took it in good faith with a goal of promoting public health and has differing opinions than me on it. God is the ultimate judge and I am not.

My focus isn't on condemning anyone other than the doctors and nurses who are lying about the connection to fetal cells. Some do out of ignorance, others do intentionally. I have a very hard time believing that Finny is ignorant of the background of the vaccines as he declares them to be entirely synthetic. He ignores what has been spoken about (DNA is needed to make the RNA) and has stated the RNA is made in a vat and that no fetal cells are involved. The DNA is replicated in E-coli and this is publicly documented by several media sources explaining the manufacturing process during media tours of the plant. He basically condemns people who stand against vaccines as stupid. John, the other doctor, is not as harsh and admits to the older vaccines having the cells used, but says it doesn't matter. He could be ignorant... Wolf Miggiani agrees with me (at least last I spoke to him) to the accuracy of my data, but does not take the stance I do because he couldn't practice medicine. I respect him for being honest about it, unlike the other two doctors, who I am very open to talking to and having them defend their actions and if my assumptions are wrong, I would publicly state that. The voices clamoring to convince the uneasy or people on the fence that the vaccine is not ethically compromised are often full of lies. Philip Hess and his father (a doctor) would take a stand but not to the extent I do, more like Wolf.

I am taking a stand against a way of scientific progress founded on abortion science that will continue to get worse while we hand wave and do nothing but continue to use and benefit from it.
This might purely be my black and white mindset, but I cannot ignore that this is a massively growing industry without any sign of slowing or halting as the major Christian organizations do nothing but listen to think tanks designed to convince the masses of the ethical nature of a new product. Outside of 1 small (almost irrelevant) Catholic organization (COG), there is really no one taking a stand.

I respect your position, though it isnt quite where I am at.

[Ernie]

And here are a couple more ethical questions...

1. Should I inject something into my body that is potentially harmful (something that has lower overall risk than Covid) or should I practice mitigation measures and hope that I don't get really sick with Covid (something that has more overall risk)?

2. Should I inject something into my body that is potentially harmful (in order to protect others who may get really sick) or should I practice mitigation measures and hope that no one gets really sick from me? (mitigation of disease is something taught in the Old Testament)?

3. Should I inject something into my body that does not have years of trials and research, or should I only use vaccines that have been studied extensively over the long haul?

4. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Many Christians believe we should take good care of this temple. Many Christians are also pro life. What if a vaccine helps reduce deaths in the present, but makes a person's body not function well in the future. That seems like a slow death. Also, some vaccinated women who have had no trouble conceiving are experiencing lack of fertility and monthly cycles. This will result in less children being born. Isn't this the opposite of "pro-life"?

5. Does it matter if the virus originated in a lab or through more natural causes? Does this make a difference in whether we should get vaccinated? i.e. If man speeds up the process of spreading disease in the world by "manufacturing" diseases, do we then submit to man's remedies to fixing his own problems? If this virus is the result of natural causes, imposed on the world through the Fall, should we inject something into our bodies before we are even sick from the thing God set in motion at the Fall? (The latter could apply to any vaccines. And of course there is then the debate about synthetic drugs vs. more natural inoculations.)

[Bootstrap]

I respect your position, though it isnt quite where I am at.

Me too.

This might purely be my black and white mindset, but I cannot ignore that this is a massively growing industry without any sign of slowing or halting as the major Christian organizations do nothing but listen to think tanks designed to convince the masses of the ethical nature of a new product. Outside of 1 small (almost irrelevant) Catholic organization (COG), there is really no one taking a stand.

This is one place I disagree with you. I think I have been able to find materials from pro-life groups who have wrestled with these issues and are taking a stand, but they are taking a different stand than you do. They are generally accepting vaccines where HEK-293 was involved, even though that traces back to a baby aborted in 1972, in order to save lives today. And I respect that position too.

[Soloist]

This is one place I disagree with you. I think I have been able to find materials from pro-life groups who have wrestled with these issues and are taking a stand, but they are taking a different stand than you do. They are generally accepting vaccines where HEK-293 was involved, even though that traces back to a baby aborted in 1972, in order to save lives today. And I respect that position too.

Those groups have no data and no apparent knowledge on the medicinal use side or the massive testing going on in pharmaceuticals. That's specifically what I'm talking about. Also they are not taking a stand if they are accepting a vaccine produced with HEK-293. They are accepting it like everyone else.