Easter ham or Passover lamb?

[ohio jones]

Christ died on Passover, not Easter.

Are there actually people who believe that Christ died on Easter, or are we just getting carried away with the flow of rhetoric?

[JohnHurt]

John,

How do you address Paul's words that it's okay if one man esteems some days holy and another man esteems all days alike?

Oh-oh and oh-no.

We probably need another thread for this one.

Contrary to most people, I hold that the teachings of Christ are superior to the doctrines of Paul.

For example, the words of Christ in Matthew 5:17-20 contradicts Paul's statements in Ephesians 2:14-15 and Colossians 2:14. So I don't believe that Paul was correct when he wrote these verses. Christ is superior.

Paul is "all things to all men" (1 Cor 9:20-22), and flip flops on issues when it suits him as a "double minded" man (James 1:8, James 4:8). What Paul says depends on who Paul is talking to.

For example, Paul condemns the need to be circumcised in Galatians 6:12-15 and other places. Yet, when Paul is confronted on this new doctrine by the elders in Jerusalem (Acts 21:21) who asked Paul if he was teaching men to forsake Moses, and not to circumcise or walk after the customs of Israel, Paul's answer to them was to enter the Temple and purify himself, and make offerings for himself and the other men as one that keeps the laws of the Temple. (Acts 21:26).

So here again, Paul flip flops on his doctrine.

Paul clearly teaches that the "middle wall of partition" in the Temple has been abolished in Christ, so that Greeks can enter. (Eph 2:14). Whether this is literal or figurative, Paul is blamed for bringing Trophimus, an Ephesian into part of the Temple behind this "middle wall of partition" (Acts 21:29), as well as teaching that God's Law has been nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). For these two reasons, a mob nearly kills Paul. (Acts 21:28). When Paul is finally brought to the High Priest on this issue, Paul denies Christ and claims that he is not a Christian, but is still a Pharisee, (Acts 23:6). Paul then curses the High Priest (who is wearing the robes of the High Priest and sitting the chair of the High Priest), and so Paul lies again and said he did not know Ananias was really the High Priest (Acts 23:5). Then Paul then lies to everyone and said the reason the mob tried to kill him in the Temple was over the resurrection of the dead, not that Paul had supposedly brought Greeks into the Temple and taught the law was abolished. (Acts 23:6)

So Paul flip flops whenever it is in his best interest.

In front of Felix, Paul said that he believes all things that are written in the law and the prophets (Acts 24:14), which is not what Paul teaches in his epistles to the churches.

So, that Paul would state that every day is alike in Romans 14:5-6 is a classic statement of a double minded man. According to Paul, you can believe whatever you want, and worship on any day you chose. According to Paul, ye shall be as God, knowing good from evil. (Genesis 3:5), and so you will know what is a good day, for you, to worship God . So if God said one thing about Passover, then Paul said that any other day that is similar, like Easter, is just as good.

Interesting enough, Paul did keep the feast days, such as Pentecost (Acts 20:16, 1 Cor 16:3,8). But only when it suited him.

So if eating ham on Easter suits you, then I would guess that Paul would be your guide.

Christ had it a little different. In Matthew 15, when the Pharisees, like Paul, tried to add their new traditions as bondage to Christ and His 12 Apostles, Christ said "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9. This is a quote from Isaiah 29:13.

These doctrines of men are vanity, and only prove that our hearts are far from Him.

Josh, if you just drop out all of the man-made traditions, like Easter, December 25th, and all these others innovations, you and I would be much closer in what we believe.

Your comments about Christ making all meats clean in Mark 7:19 are not found in the KJV, but only in the modern and liberal Bible translations. The earliest version of Mark 7:19 that proposes that Christ cleansed all foods is found in the Hort and Westcott Bible of 1878 or thereabouts. No earlier version/translation has this addition to Mark 7:19. Wycliff or Tyndale did not have this addition in their translations. Just stick to the KJV and you won't find as much error. And you won't be able to make this same claim that Christ cleansed all foods in Mark 7:19 from the parallel passage in Matthew 15:1-20, because Matthew 15:20 clearly reiterates that the topic under discussion is eating with unwashen hands, and the discussion did not jump over to talking about eating unclean food. But in Mark 7, the NIV / Hort & Westcott translators must think that we all have attention deficit disorder, and cannot remember the original topic under discussion. No one should even have to argue that Mark 7:19 has been corrupted in the NIV and other versions, as Matthew 15:20 clearly contradicts this addition to our Bibles. But you can do your own study.

If you do find a translation of the Bible, any translation, that has Christ cleansing all meats in Mark 7:19, and the Bible translation was written prior to the Hort and Westcott version of 1878, let me know. Just open up another thread.

Thanks for your comments.

John

[JohnHurt]

Christ died on Passover, not Easter.

Are there actually people who believe that Christ died on Easter, or are we just getting carried away with the flow of rhetoric?

I think the thread is about eating ham on Easter, or lamb on Passover.

But if you started a poll, you might find that most people believe that Christ died on Good Friday, and was resurrected on Easter Sunday, which is three days and three nights, somehow. (Matthew 12:40)

[Hats Off]

I think it might be neat to start a poll to see how many people think Paul contradicts Jesus and still call themselves Christian.

[Valerie]

From David Bercot: Lent is the period of fasting that precedes Easter. In the early church, the length of this fast varied from region to region, being anywhere from one day to forty days in length.

From what I've been taught- the 40 days is based on Jesus own fasting of 40 days-

In the year 180, Irenaeus had this to say:

"The paschal controversy concerns not only the day, but also as regards the form itself of the fast. For some consider themselves bound to fast one day, others two, others still more. In fact, others fast forty days....And this variety among the observers (of the fasts) did not have its origin in our time, but long before that of our predecessors. Some of our predecessors, perhaps not being very accurate in their observance of it, handed down to posterity the custom as it had been introduced, through simplicity or private fancy. Nevertheless, all these churches lived in peace with one another.....In fact, the difference of the fast establishes the harmony of our faith"

Paschal, of course meaning "Passover" The Orthodox Church refers to it as Pascha, but has a good enough explanation of the use of the word Easter to not relate it to a goddess- however- they've always called the celebration Pascha-

I am pointing out that this statement is long before the so called Constantine Church, that the 40 day fasting occurred but again- that was in relation to Jesus fasting 40 days-

[Judas Maccabeus]

John,

How do you address Paul's words that it's okay if one man esteems some days holy and another man esteems all days alike?

Oh-oh and oh-no.

We probably need another thread for this one.

Contrary to most people, I hold that the teachings of Christ are superior to the doctrines of Paul.

For example, the words of Christ in Matthew 5:17-20 contradicts Paul's statements in Ephesians 2:14-15 and Colossians 2:14. So I don't believe that Paul was correct when he wrote these verses. Christ is superior.

Paul is "all things to all men" (1 Cor 9:20-22), and flip flops on issues when it suits him as a "double minded" man (James 1:8, James 4:8). What Paul says depends on who Paul is talking to.

For example, Paul condemns the need to be circumcised in Galatians 6:12-15 and other places. Yet, when Paul is confronted on this new doctrine by the elders in Jerusalem (Acts 21:21) who asked Paul if he was teaching men to forsake Moses, and not to circumcise or walk after the customs of Israel, Paul's answer to them was to enter the Temple and purify himself, and make offerings for himself and the other men as one that keeps the laws of the Temple. (Acts 21:26).

So here again, Paul flip flops on his doctrine.

Paul clearly teaches that the "middle wall of partition" in the Temple has been abolished in Christ, so that Greeks can enter. (Eph 2:14). Whether this is literal or figurative, Paul is blamed for bringing Trophimus, an Ephesian into part of the Temple behind this "middle wall of partition" (Acts 21:29), as well as teaching that God's Law has been nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). For these two reasons, a mob nearly kills Paul. (Acts 21:28). When Paul is finally brought to the High Priest on this issue, Paul denies Christ and claims that he is not a Christian, but is still a Pharisee, (Acts 23:6). Paul then curses the High Priest (who is wearing the robes of the High Priest and sitting the chair of the High Priest), and so Paul lies again and said he did not know Ananias was really the High Priest (Acts 23:5). Then Paul then lies to everyone and said the reason the mob tried to kill him in the Temple was over the resurrection of the dead, not that Paul had supposedly brought Greeks into the Temple and taught the law was abolished. (Acts 23:6)

So Paul flip flops whenever it is in his best interest.

In front of Felix, Paul said that he believes all things that are written in the law and the prophets (Acts 24:14), which is not what Paul teaches in his epistles to the churches.

So, that Paul would state that every day is alike in Romans 14:5-6 is a classic statement of a double minded man. According to Paul, you can believe whatever you want, and worship on any day you chose. According to Paul, ye shall be as God, knowing good from evil. (Genesis 3:5), and so you will know what is a good day, for you, to worship God . So if God said one thing about Passover, then Paul said that any other day that is similar, like Easter, is just as good.

Interesting enough, Paul did keep the feast days, such as Pentecost (Acts 20:16, 1 Cor 16:3,8). But only when it suited him.

So if eating ham on Easter suits you, then I would guess that Paul would be your guide.

Christ had it a little different. In Matthew 15, when the Pharisees, like Paul, tried to add their new traditions as bondage to Christ and His 12 Apostles, Christ said "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9. This is a quote from Isaiah 29:13.

These doctrines of men are vanity, and only prove that our hearts are far from Him.

Josh, if you just drop out all of the man-made traditions, like Easter, December 25th, and all these others innovations, you and I would be much closer in what we believe.

Your comments about Christ making all meats clean in Mark 7:19 are not found in the KJV, but only in the modern and liberal Bible translations. The earliest version of Mark 7:19 that proposes that Christ cleansed all foods is found in the Hort and Westcott Bible of 1878 or thereabouts. No earlier version/translation has this addition to Mark 7:19. Wycliff or Tyndale did not have this addition in their translations. Just stick to the KJV and you won't find as much error. And you won't be able to make this same claim that Christ cleansed all foods in Mark 7:19 from the parallel passage in Matthew 15:1-20, because Matthew 15:20 clearly reiterates that the topic under discussion is eating with unwashen hands, and the discussion did not jump over to talking about eating unclean food. But in Mark 7, the NIV / Hort & Westcott translators must think that we all have attention deficit disorder, and cannot remember the original topic under discussion. No one should even have to argue that Mark 7:19 has been corrupted in the NIV and other versions, as Matthew 15:20 clearly contradicts this addition to our Bibles. But you can do your own study.

If you do find a translation of the Bible, any translation, that has Christ cleansing all meats in Mark 7:19, and the Bible translation was written prior to the Hort and Westcott version of 1878, let me know. Just open up another thread.

Thanks for your comments.

John

Are you challenging the inspiration/Inerrency/authority of the Pauline epistles here?

J.M.

[Valerie]

Josh & J.M., now you know why silentreader said "oh-oh" as we have been down this road with John against Apostle Paul before (before you both joined MD)- it will get very very lengthy to open this up again?!? But maybe you can help.

[Valerie]

Here's another reference to fasting before Easter-
in the year 262 Dionysius of Alexandria said:

"You have sent to me, most faithful and accomplished son, in order to inquire what is the proper hour for bringing the fast to a close on the day of Easter. You say that there are some of the brethren who hold that it should be done at cockrow, but others who say that it should end at nightfall....It will be cordially acknowledged by all that those who have been humbling their souls with fasting should immediately begin their festal joy and gladness at the same hour as the resurrection....However, no precise account seems to be offered in Holy Scripture as to the hour at which He rose."

This was obviously a practice before Constantine as well-

(Bercot pointed out he inserted "Easter" for Pascha since most people are familiar with Easter-

[Josh]

Josh, if you just drop out all of the man-made traditions, like Easter, December 25th, and all these others innovations, you and I would be much closer in what we believe.

The church I go to doesn't observe Christmas or Easter. I invite you to attend one of our services this Sunday.

[Valerie]

Josh, if you just drop out all of the man-made traditions, like Easter, December 25th, and all these others innovations, you and I would be much closer in what we believe.

The church I go to doesn't observe Christmas or Easter. I invite you to attend one of our services this Sunday.

Question then- we stayed at a B & B in Holmes County Wed and it was owned by Mennonites- former Amish husband & wife grew up Mennonite- she explained alot of their beliefs at the breakfast (very interesting!) but confirmed their observance of "Ascension Day" - I know that Amish/Mennonite businesses had signs up "closed for Good Friday" and also I know that they are also closed on Ascension Day- so all these seem significant to Amish & Mennonite-
From the beginning of the Reformation era- were their individual churches like Josh's that decided to abstain from observing these?