The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

General Christian Theology
Josh

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:41 am In that case, am I understanding you to say that the amount we give to others' demands in a particular situation is on a spectrum?
At one end of the spectrum it may be ethical. At the other end it is unethical?
And at some place in the middle of the scale it gets really gray? And it would take wisdom or Spirit guidance to know what to do?
Or is the point on the scale very black and white from your vantage point?
Not black and white at all. $17 million to criminals in Haiti is very crystal clear to me tho.

Incidentally, people often get mugged and shot over $20 or a phone. Many muggers still kill after the victim turns over their wallet. There’s really no rational reason to comply with a violent mugger; they’re going to kill you anyway.
0 x
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:34 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:41 am In that case, am I understanding you to say that the amount we give to others' demands in a particular situation is on a spectrum?
At one end of the spectrum it may be ethical. At the other end it is unethical?
And at some place in the middle of the scale it gets really gray? And it would take wisdom or Spirit guidance to know what to do?
Or is the point on the scale very black and white from your vantage point?
Not black and white at all. $17 million to criminals in Haiti is very crystal clear to me tho.

Incidentally, people often get mugged and shot over $20 or a phone. Many muggers still kill after the victim turns over their wallet. There’s really no rational reason to comply with a violent mugger; they’re going to kill you anyway.
Here are the 2021 crime statistics for NYC: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downlo ... s-city.pdf

To date in 2021 there have been 12,044 robberies and 432 murders in the city so there are 28-times more reported robberies than murders. And that is all murders of every kind, not just those committed during the course of a robbery. Murders are also much more likely to be reported than robberies. So statistically speaking you probably have less than a 1% chance of being killed during a mugging. Your risk of dying of COVID is higher than dying in a robbery.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:13 pmHere are the 2021 crime statistics for NYC: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downlo ... s-city.pdf

To date in 2021 there have been 12,044 robberies and 432 murders in the city so there are 28-times more reported robberies than murders. And that is all murders of every kind, not just those committed during the course of a robbery. Murders are also much more likely to be reported than robberies. So statistically speaking you probably have less than a 1% chance of being killed during a mugging. Your risk of dying of COVID is higher than dying in a robbery.
I have absolutely zero confidence if someone is willing to threaten to murder me over $20 that he will be not choose to murder me anyway. Mugging is attempted murder. Sorry, Ken.

And you can't have a stable, peaceful society in one where murder, mugging (or kidnapping) is tolerated. The purpose of the state is to harshly suppress such violent people with imprisonment & capital punishment.
0 x
ohio jones

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by ohio jones »

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:34 am Incidentally, people often get mugged and shot over $20 or a phone. Many muggers still kill after the victim turns over their wallet. There’s really no rational reason to comply with a violent mugger; they’re going to kill you anyway.
Not all muggings result in murder, and either way the mugger gets your wallet, so why not surrender the cash on the chance that "your money or your life" really is a boolean choice?
0 x
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:42 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:13 pmHere are the 2021 crime statistics for NYC: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downlo ... s-city.pdf

To date in 2021 there have been 12,044 robberies and 432 murders in the city so there are 28-times more reported robberies than murders. And that is all murders of every kind, not just those committed during the course of a robbery. Murders are also much more likely to be reported than robberies. So statistically speaking you probably have less than a 1% chance of being killed during a mugging. Your risk of dying of COVID is higher than dying in a robbery.
I have absolutely zero confidence if someone is willing to threaten to murder me over $20 that he will be not choose to murder me anyway. Mugging is attempted murder. Sorry, Ken.

And you can't have a stable, peaceful society in one where murder, mugging (or kidnapping) is tolerated. The purpose of the state is to harshly suppress such violent people with imprisonment & capital punishment.
Your confidence has nothing to do with anything Josh. Face it. You were completely wrong in your assertion that most muggings turn to murder because “they are gong to kill you anyway” [your words]. The data suggests the exact opposite. Now you want to see capital punishment for people who steal $20 or a cell phone? Not even Iran, Saudi Arabia, or the Taliban are that bloodthirsty.

And yes, if I was faced with an armed robber I would most likely give up my wallet or cell phone and do my best to diffuse the situation. As would most sensible people. Those things are easily replaced. But that doesn’t mean I or anyone else “tolerates” armed robbery.

Most people carry weapons so they can threaten violence, not because they intend from the start to engage in it. It is the same for a mugger or Kyle Rittenhouse. They both carry weapons not because they intend to kill, but so they can threaten violence as a last resort to achieve their ends. Yes they have different ends, one legal and one illegal. But the means are the same.
Last edited by Ken on Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ernie

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by Ernie »

Perhaps this discussion/conflict should move onto a different thread...

I would like if this thread could stay focused on the tendency to turn all sorts of things into ethical matters.
0 x
RZehr

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by RZehr »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:33 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:09 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:00 am As I keep pointing out, most Haitians are very anti-kidnappings and don’t want violent gangsters to keep getting more money and control.

Giving them $17 million is inherently immoral.
Yes, doing so is wrong and immoral and something Christians missionaries should never do.
This is not something that I view the same way. There are many considerations, but four of them are:
1. Are people responsible for their own actions, or others actions?
2. The question at hand here, is the use of money. Is there a uniqueness to the money that may lead to different conclusions than, say influencing someone to do good, or wicked?
3. To what extent is this reciprocal?
4. Am I only responsible for what I do, or also for what happens if I choose to do nothing?

Personally, I lean heavier toward personal responsibility and less on shared culpability. I agree that to some extent, we do have a responsibility for the repercussions of our actions. Things that come to mind, are the verses that teach about the responsibility church leaders have to their flocks well being; and the duty of parents to teach their children right from wrong. But these two examples are both situations where there is an authority & responsibility, which we do not necessarily share in the same way to all people outside the household of faith. The responsibility we have to the broader world is different. For example, we are responsible to share truth with them, but we are not responsible for what they do with that knowledge.

I believe when it comes to money, there is a lot less shared culpability than the examples I gave above. Personally, I don't believe that in the course of daily living, I am responsible for what a person does with the money that I give them after it leaves my hand. From an employee choosing to spend his money on drugs or alcohol, to what a service provider spends his profits on, that is his responsibility. We are not guilty for their spending. We can consider what the Bible teaches about paying taxes. We know that the government will use some of the money for evil. Yet, nonetheless, we are instructed to give them the money anyway.

If we are responsible for the use of money after it leaves our hands, then are people who have paid us for services and goods and wages also responsible for what we do with "our" money? If we do good with the money in our possession, does some...."cosmic magic" happen that somehow bestows....."honor" or something on the person we received the money from? And how many links backwards and forward does this association go? The money I receive all goes into one account. If I do good with some of the money, and evil with some of the money, does the people who gave me the money split the guilt and blessings as well? Exactly how does the accounting work? If the kidnappers already have $10 million in their account and I give them another $1 million.....And they spend 10% of their revenue on their neighborhood in the form of humanitarian aid, do I get to claim that was mine? The truth is, once I give it, the money is theirs. Am I culpable for what happens next? Maybe. Hardly.

If I am responsible for some extent what happens if I give them money, then I am also responsible for some extent to what happens if I withhold money. See the rich man and Lazarus. It is a matter of commission vs. omission. If I keep money, and my neighbor starves to death because I withheld money, it is similar to withholding ransom and allowing someone to be killed.

I think at the end of it all, we can't simply take one side and say that to pay the ransom is wrong, but to not pay the ransom is right. We either bear some responsibility with both options, or we bear no responsibility on either option.
I personally have long ago determined that by and large I am responsible for the money while I am in possession of it and not after or before. I give money to panhandlers too.

I am not saying that I bear zero responsibility for what someone does with the money I give them. But I believe it is mighty small. And in this case pales in comparison to the weight of the other factors in play. I am also responsible for what I don't do.
Last edited by RZehr on Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
0 x
Ernie

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by Ernie »

I like your thoughts, RZehr.

Josh, I would like your response to this some time.
Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:41 am In that case, am I understanding you to say that the amount we give to others' demands in a particular situation is on a spectrum?
At one end of the spectrum it may be ethical. At the other end it is unethical?
And at some place in the middle of the scale it gets really gray? And it would take wisdom or Spirit guidance to know what to do?
Or is the point on the scale very black and white from your vantage point?
0 x
Soloist

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by Soloist »

Terrorists got brought up... So a question could easily be is there a difference between giving ransom to them versus gangs?

What about the homeless who will buy drugs?
0 x
RZehr

Re: The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

Post by RZehr »

Soloist wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:32 pm Terrorists got brought up... So a question could easily be is there a difference between giving ransom to them versus gangs?

What about the homeless who will buy drugs?
Other than the legality, I don't see much difference between paying ransom to a terrorist or gang or say a lone wolf American criminal hostage taker.

I don't know why I need to be more concerned with the homeless man who uses my money to buy drugs, any more (or less) than I need to be concerned about an employee or supplier, who uses the bulk of his paycheck/profits on drugs/gambling/prostitutes or whatever. The money being properly earned vs. freely given, shouldn't change my culpability. If it does, exactly why and/or how?
0 x
Post Reply