What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

[barnhart]

A few thoughts since this thread invites sharing.

1. The actual samples I have seen of CRT in action, such as the anecdotes graciously provided by HK, generally do not bother me since I take them as being written in an exaggerated, prophetic style a little like the actual prophets in the Bible who said things like "Israel is a rebellious heifer" when calling out collective sin.

2. It seems strange to me that fundamental Christians should object to the idea of societies harboring sinful behaviors or attitudes. From the earliest nation states in Genesis through the prophet's judgements, from the New Testament sweeping condemnation of contemporary society, through to the apocalyptic judgment of every nation on earth, the Bible does not shy away from collective sin. Neither did believers in the past who worked to oppose cultural practices like alcoholism, slavery, infanticide, binding infant feet, burning widows in funeral pyers ect... And neither do most Christians today if the target is an area of culture they find distant like Hollywood or higher education.

3. The scale of the objection seems unusually high. The level of passion for denouncing CRT is substantially greater than the resistance to other doctrinal errors that seem more wide spread and more damaging like prosperity gospel or patriotic nationalism idolatry (PNI). This observation does not include HK, easily the most rational defender I have encountered, nor most on Mennonet.

4. I'm suspicious of the inclination to spiritualize social reality to the point that the only possible remedy is immaterial. Or to put it another way, material action is categorically eliminated by framing the issue as a spiritual problem. This is like the antebellum Christians telling the people they hold in bondage that we are brothers in God's
kingdom so the conditions of this world are not important.

5. The last time Marxism was raised as an impending threat was around the Civil rights movements of the 60's. It should give pause that when black voices are raised, the majority church equates that with Marxism. The best spin I can put on that is the majority church sees minority voices as acceptable expenditures in the fight against communism.

[Josh]

A few responses:

A few thoughts since this thread invites sharing.

1. The actual samples I have seen of CRT in action, such as the anecdotes graciously provided by HK, generally do not bother me since I take them as being written in an exaggerated, prophetic style a little like the actual prophets in the Bible who said things like "Israel is a rebellious heifer" when calling out collective sin.

Most of my objection is to critical theory in general; but yes, I think it’s bad to “prophetically” blame groups of people based on skin colour for things.

2. It seems strange to me that fundamental Christians should object to the idea of societies harboring sinful behaviors or attitudes. From the earliest nation states in Genesis through the prophet's judgements, from the New Testament sweeping condemnation of contemporary society, through to the apocalyptic judgment of every nation on earth, the Bible does not shy away from collective sin. Neither did believers in the past who worked to oppose cultural practices like alcoholism, slavery, infanticide, binding infant feet, burning widows in funeral pyers ect... And neither do most Christians today if the target is an area of culture they find distant like Hollywood or higher education.

I would object to statements like:

“Indians are bad people because they practice widow pyres”

“Chinese are bad people because their ancestors practiced food binding”

Of note is that the NT doesn’t focus on group condemnation at all. In the OT, the Israelites were commanded to go to war with “bad” nations and kill al of them, women, children, animals and all.

3. The scale of the objection seems unusually high. The level of passion for denouncing CRT is substantially greater than the resistance to other doctrinal errors that seem more wide spread and more damaging like prosperity gospel or patriotic nationalism idolatry (PNI). This observation does not include HK, easily the most rational defender I have encountered, nor most on Mennonet.

Prosperity gospel doesn’t currently have the full force of the government and mainstream society behind it, although I’ve spoken against it plenty.

4. I'm suspicious of the inclination to spiritualize social reality to the point that the only possible remedy is immaterial. Or to put it another way, material action is categorically eliminated by framing the issue as a spiritual problem. This is like the antebellum Christians telling the people they hold in bondage that we are brothers in God's
kingdom so the conditions of this world are not important.

Then do you think the Civil War (for the North) was a good thing that Christians should have supported?

5. The last time Marxism was raised as an impending threat was around the Civil rights movements of the 60's. It should give pause that when black voices are raised, the majority church equates that with Marxism. The best spin I can put on that is the majority church sees minority voices as acceptable expenditures in the fight against communism.

“Cultural Marxism” refers to a specific political philosophy that seeks to apply Marxist principles of class struggle to other conflicts between groups of people.

It should be rather obvious this goes against the way of Christ.

[temporal1]

A few thoughts since this thread invites sharing.

1. The actual samples I have seen of CRT in action, such as the anecdotes graciously provided by HK, generally do not bother me since I take them as being written in an exaggerated, prophetic style a little like the actual prophets in the Bible who said things like "Israel is a rebellious heifer" when calling out collective sin.

2. It seems strange to me that fundamental Christians should object to the idea of societies harboring sinful behaviors or attitudes. From the earliest nation states in Genesis through the prophet's judgements, from the New Testament sweeping condemnation of contemporary society, through to the apocalyptic judgment of every nation on earth, the Bible does not shy away from collective sin. Neither did believers in the past who worked to oppose cultural practices like alcoholism, slavery, infanticide, binding infant feet, burning widows in funeral pyers ect... And neither do most Christians today if the target is an area of culture they find distant like Hollywood or higher education.

3. The scale of the objection seems unusually high. The level of passion for denouncing CRT is substantially greater than the resistance to other doctrinal errors that seem more wide spread and more damaging like prosperity gospel or patriotic nationalism idolatry (PNI). This observation does not include HK, easily the most rational defender I have encountered, nor most on Mennonet.

4. I'm suspicious of the inclination to spiritualize social reality to the point that the only possible remedy is immaterial. Or to put it another way, material action is categorically eliminated by framing the issue as a spiritual problem. This is like the antebellum Christians telling the people they hold in bondage that we are brothers in God's
kingdom so the conditions of this world are not important.

5. The last time Marxism was raised as an impending threat was around the Civil rights movements of the 60's. It should give pause that when black voices are raised, the majority church equates that with Marxism. The best spin I can put on that is the majority church sees minority voices as acceptable expenditures in the fight against communism.

sigh. how the world bores you! "every ounce carried counts triple when you're trudging uphill in rarefied air"

barnart:
.. This observation does not include HK, easily the most rational defender I have encountered, ..

in my view, not many deserve response from HK, at all. Matthew 7:6 .. (i sometimes literally choke when seeing such undeserved indulgences.) .. but all can benefit from his public responses. i marvel at his patience. i pray for understanding, insights, wisdom. not feeling deserving of all gifts received.

in general, a thoughtful study of Thomas Sowell, a former Marxist who lived through the revered+idealized 1960’s,
is a good investment of time for attempting to understand where the world is today. ignoring/dismissing him is a major cultural mistake - naturally, he is not appreciated by self-serving opportunists who have successfully exploited the 1960’s.

TS speaks credibly on CRT, the 60’s, societal conditions, economics, and more, from his personal experience and from studied academics. TS is an academic. He’s not a race-baiter.

if he had been a lesser man, he could have been a leading opportunist! his name should be a “household word.”

some men choose personal ethics above profit+fame. thank God for these.

- - - - - - -

i don’t intend to suggest CRT folks should be silenced. TS definitely studied, esp from a Marxist view! where he began.
many disagree these views should be taught while ignoring/rejecting alternate views! this is the problem.

of course, teaching in balance would result in silencing CRT! it can’t hold up.
.. thus, empathy for intolerance of balanced views - can be understood. accepting it, pushing it, would be foolish.

nothing like the light of day.

[temporal1]

Josh:
Prosperity gospel doesn’t currently have the full force of the government and mainstream society behind it,
although I’ve spoken against it plenty.

Bingo.
Organized political blocs, and now cults, have figured out how to hijack laws of the land for power+protection, AND pirate the U.S. Public Treasury. Not only insulting+harming the majority, but forcing them to pay for it, to boot.

Schools of human law, which are pinnacles of godless human reasoning, destroy.
True when Jesus was made man, true today. God have mercy.

Notice, it’s now uncommon for the highly elected to not have law school degrees, law school experience, to not be surrounded by lawyers. God have mercy, WJ Clinton reflected how awful that could be. obama took his lead and soared with it.

In the least, we on the bottom can refuse to be caught up in it. Beware human reasoning, esp when armed with law degrees.

The People play with checkers.
Organized political blocs+cults, lobbies, play high-stakes chess. For keeps. To their greatest ability.

Only God in heaven prevents it from being even worse. He’s capable of ending it, in a flash.
Without doubt, He slows it down.

[joshuabgood]

Of note is that the NT doesn’t focus on group condemnation at all.

Whole churches are routinely grouped together with general sins. Laodiceans, Corinthians, etc. And socially Cretans were called out.

[Ken]

Of note is that the NT doesn’t focus on group condemnation at all.

Whole churches are routinely grouped together with general sins. Laodiceans, Corinthians, etc. And socially Cretans were called out.

But prejudice against ethnic groups like the Samaritans was called out and criticized.

[Josh]

Of note is that the NT doesn’t focus on group condemnation at all.

Whole churches are routinely grouped together with general sins. Laodiceans, Corinthians, etc. And socially Cretans were called out.

But prejudice against ethnic groups like the Samaritans was called out and criticized.

It was not done via a western progressive critical-theory lens.

[Josh]

Of note is that the NT doesn’t focus on group condemnation at all.

Whole churches are routinely grouped together with general sins. Laodiceans, Corinthians, etc. And socially Cretans were called out.

A whole church is entirely different from, say, calling out all people who happen to have a light skin colour. A church is a voluntary association and one that deigns to be responsible for its members, including expelling ones who fail to uphold the church’s values.

Whereas I don’t recall ever agreeing to be part of a group called “white people”. Nor do I consider myself remotely responsible for what people who may or may not be considered white do around the globe, or did in the past. I certainly don’t consider myself remotely associated with whatever Ukrainians and Russians are up to, for example.

[GaryK]

Of note is that the NT doesn’t focus on group condemnation at all.

Whole churches are routinely grouped together with general sins. Laodiceans, Corinthians, etc. And socially Cretans were called out.

Of note is the messages to the churches in Revelation are addressed to the leaders of those churches and the call to repentance seems to be focused on individuals (If anyone hears my voice...). Also mention is made about the few names in Sardis who hadn't defiled their garments, which seems to imply individual choice.

[Falco Underhill]

A few thoughts since this thread invites sharing....

2. It seems strange to me that fundamental Christians should object to the idea of societies harboring sinful behaviors or attitudes. From the earliest nation states in Genesis through the prophet's judgements, from the New Testament sweeping condemnation of contemporary society, through to the apocalyptic judgment of every nation on earth, the Bible does not shy away from collective sin. Neither did believers in the past who worked to oppose cultural practices like alcoholism, slavery, infanticide, binding infant feet, burning widows in funeral pyers ect... And neither do most Christians today if the target is an area of culture they find distant like Hollywood or higher education.

I'm not sure anyone is objecting to the notion of collective sin at all. (Maybe about who gets to pronounce collective guilt.)

Some of us do regard the CRT notion that racism is due to the sin of some mystical notion of "whiteness" with skepticism.

3. The scale of the objection seems unusually high. The level of passion for denouncing CRT is substantially greater than the resistance to other doctrinal errors that seem more wide spread and more damaging like prosperity gospel or patriotic nationalism idolatry (PNI). This observation does not include HK, easily the most rational defender I have encountered, nor most on Mennonet.

Indeed, I very much appreciate HK's very rational insights as well. In fact, I appreciate the input by everyone in this thread so far and have enjoyed sitting back and reading the responses for a while.

The doctrinal errors you mention that Christians sometimes argue about are probably regarded by most Christians as heresies. The presuppositions behind CRT, however, represent to many of us a full blown apostasy with political effectiveness, and (to me at least) an antichurch.

Marxism/neomarxism is more than just a political movement. It is a spiritual apostasy.

So, we suspect CRT is far more than just a "lens" through which to examine racial disparities.

4. I'm suspicious of the inclination to spiritualize social reality to the point that the only possible remedy is immaterial. Or to put it another way, material action is categorically eliminated by framing the issue as a spiritual problem. This is like the antebellum Christians telling the people they hold in bondage that we are brothers in God's kingdom so the conditions of this world are not important.

It would be more accurate to say we're criticizing a spiritual problem with CRT, I think.

5. The last time Marxism was raised as an impending threat was around the Civil rights movements of the 60's. It should give pause that when black voices are raised, the majority church equates that with Marxism. The best spin I can put on that is the majority church sees minority voices as acceptable expenditures in the fight against communism.

Those of us who recognize that BLM was founded and run by "trained Marxists" with an obvious political motive for agitating/organizing civil unrest in the name of [real] race problems don't necessarily believe everyone involved in the protests were Marxists. In fact, I doubt very much there is a single person on this forum who believes most protestors were Marxists or who automatically equates raised black voices with Marxism. It's doubtful to me that even the "majority Church" does any of that.

Maybe in a political context between liberals and conservatives those accusations fly, but this wasn't intended to be a thread about politics, and I hope it doesn't become one.

I don't think political accusations are very helpful.