More guided or less guided ?

[silentreader]

No, I am not saying the Spirit is different than the Spirit that guided OT people such as Elijah or David. I am trying to say that the Spirit has been sent to us under the NC to live in us permanently and to guide us even when we are not reading scripture. So, after Pentecost, they did not have to wait until the canon of scriptures was compiled but could be led by the Spirit, moment by moment.

(quote from Sudsy)

I think the first generation had a completely different understanding of Scripture. Notice Peter speaking of Scripture and especially his seeming indirect reference to Paul's letters as being part of Scripture at that time. The early church evidently had what they considered Scripture long before someone imagined up a canon.

2Peter 3:14-18 (ESV)

14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

[Sudsy]

Some believe that any inspired writings beyond the canon are not how God leads us today or that whatever is believed to be God's guidance for us today must have some canon support somewhere in it. I just read an article that strongly urges Christians to only believe the Spirit guides them through the canon and no other way.

Would anyone care to give their thoughts about being guided by the Holy Spirit in ways not recorded in the canon and/or why using the canon only has not resulted in a common Christian belief on all the texts in the canon ?

And to add one more, are Holy Spirit inspired writings only in the canon or is there other writings just as inspired by the Holy Spirit since the canon was assembled ?

Perhaps this may be of help as we study being guided by the Holy Spirit.

[Outsider]

Some believe that any inspired writings beyond the canon are not how God leads us today or that whatever is believed to be God's guidance for us today must have some canon support somewhere in it.

If we follow Christ's lead, the canon will support it. The Holy Spirit will not disagree with itself. All the things Christ said can be found somewhere in the OT. And when Satan tempts him, he responds with scripture.

I've read extensively in Apocrypha, and I believe there are valid messages through the Holy Spirit in them. However, they usually (not all) contain personal beliefs and opinions of the authors which are not scriptural. One believed in the existence of the Phoenix if I recall. And Paul noted on several occasions outright that "this is my opinion, not the Spirit".

Not every word that comes out of the mouth of a prophet is the word of God- unless you're Jesus Christ. And that does not make them a false prophets- it makes them fully human.

"God looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside;
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."

That last line includes the prophet.

I just read an article that strongly urges Christians to only believe the Spirit guides them through the canon and no other way.

I think the Spirit should agree with itself, so the guiding of the Spirit should be confirmed by Scripture. But I believe the Spirit can address specific situations in our lives which are here and now and not in the past. Yet, still agree with all which has gone before.

Would anyone care to give their thoughts about being guided by the Holy Spirit in ways not recorded in the canon and/or why using the canon only has not resulted in a common Christian belief on all the texts in the canon?

There are a lot of reasons. People who want to water down doctrine to become "friends with the world". People who use the faith as a path to social (worldly) dominance and wealth. People who want to indulge themselves. Pride. And that lack of charity I mentioned before.

And to add one more, are Holy Spirit inspired writings only in the canon or is there other writings just as inspired by the Holy Spirit since the canon was assembled ?

Surely there are some. But most of the most vaunted and read writings on theology and such I consider to be just a whole lot of vain nothing. As profitable as arguing the number of angels on the head of a pin. The Calvanist/Armenian debate is one such. The Trinitarian/Arian debate (and let's not forget Modalism, which is what most people who think they're teaching the Trinity are actually teaching: God is like water: ice, liquid, gas). It's all navel-gazing. And it's irrelevant to living the law of love.

Let's include how God did creation in that list as well.

All we need to know about Christ he was begotten of the Father, spoke for the Father, lived for the Father, died for us, and was raised on the third Day.

All the rest of that stuff is hogwash.

Perhaps this may be of help as we study being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

[Sudsy]

Some believe that any inspired writings beyond the canon are not how God leads us today or that whatever is believed to be God's guidance for us today must have some canon support somewhere in it.

If we follow Christ's lead, the canon will support it. The Holy Spirit will not disagree with itself. All the things Christ said can be found somewhere in the OT. And when Satan tempts him, he responds with scripture.

I've read extensively in Apocrypha, and I believe there are valid messages through the Holy Spirit in them. However, they usually (not all) contain personal beliefs and opinions of the authors which are not scriptural. One believed in the existence of the Phoenix if I recall. And Paul noted on several occasions outright that "this is my opinion, not the Spirit".

Not every word that comes out of the mouth of a prophet is the word of God- unless you're Jesus Christ. And that does not make them a false prophets- it makes them fully human.

"God looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside;
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."

That last line includes the prophet.

I just read an article that strongly urges Christians to only believe the Spirit guides them through the canon and no other way.

I think the Spirit should agree with itself, so the guiding of the Spirit should be confirmed by Scripture. But I believe the Spirit can address specific situations in our lives which are here and now and not in the past. Yet, still agree with all which has gone before.

Would anyone care to give their thoughts about being guided by the Holy Spirit in ways not recorded in the canon and/or why using the canon only has not resulted in a common Christian belief on all the texts in the canon?

There are a lot of reasons. People who want to water down doctrine to become "friends with the world". People who use the faith as a path to social (worldly) dominance and wealth. People who want to indulge themselves. Pride. And that lack of charity I mentioned before.

And to add one more, are Holy Spirit inspired writings only in the canon or is there other writings just as inspired by the Holy Spirit since the canon was assembled ?

Surely there are some. But most of the most vaunted and read writings on theology and such I consider to be just a whole lot of vain nothing. As profitable as arguing the number of angels on the head of a pin. The Calvanist/Armenian debate is one such. The Trinitarian/Arian debate (and let's not forget Modalism, which is what most people who think they're teaching the Trinity are actually teaching: God is like water: ice, liquid, gas). It's all navel-gazing. And it's irrelevant to living the law of love.

Let's include how God did creation in that list as well.

All we need to know about Christ he was begotten of the Father, spoke for the Father, lived for the Father, died for us, and was raised on the third Day.

All the rest of that stuff is hogwash.

Perhaps this may be of help as we study being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

Thanks for your input.

A technical point - the Holy Spirit is a Person, right ? Therefore He should not be referred to as -'itself' but rather 'Himself'.

Speaking literally everything Jesus said is not in the OT. Jesus often corrected the views from OT writings and would say 'but I say unto you', right ?

I agree that living in and out God's love is of highest priority. If only we could fully grasp just how great His love is. As I get older I have discovered more about it yet I still think I'm far from being able to fully understand it.

I also agree that we can get hung up on issues of understanding God's ways and I believe often result in unloving behavior.

Regarding all of the Holy Spirit guidance being confirmed by scripture I think this gets into interpretation of scriptures and although I agree God does not contradict Himself our understandings and use of scriptures can be quite flawed.

[joey_the_ox]

Your post reminds me of what Jesus said about His sheep. He said His sheep know and hear His voice and they follow Him. Another's voice they will not follow. With so many voices to hear, even within Christianity, and so many varied beliefs being taught from the same Bibles, how does one know the voice of the Shepherd today above voices that are not Spirit lead ?

Someone once described this problem, and their struggle to find a solution:

In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?

While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Never did any passage of a scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in a darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.

I forgot that I had posted this - I was planning to come back and give some context. Someone liked it, which reminded me. The author here is Joseph Smith, describing his thoughts directly before he went to the woods to pray, where he received his infamous vision.

[Outsider]

The Holy Spirit will not disagree with itself.

Thanks for your input.

A technical point - the Holy Spirit is a Person, right ? Therefore He should not be referred to as -'itself' but rather 'Himself'.

Well, "itself" is the written word of God, "God-Breated" by the Holy Spirit "himself".

Speaking literally everything Jesus said is not in the OT. Jesus often corrected the views from OT writings and would say 'but I say unto you', right ?

It will take me some time to find book, chapter, and verse, but I believe I have seen it shown in an article someplace about.

Luke 6:27
27 (AP)“But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, "

Proverbs 25:21
If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat;
And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;

Exodus 23:4
4 “If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again.

2 Kings 6:22
22 But he answered, “You shall not kill them. Would you kill those whom you have taken captive with your sword and your bow? Set food and water before them, that they may eat and drink and go to their master.”

Mark 10:11
11 So He said to them, (A)“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.

Malachi 2:16
“For the Lord God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one’s garment with violence,” Says the Lord of hosts. “Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously.”


Matthew 5:28
28 But I say to you that whoever (AK)looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Deuteronomy 5:21
21 (A)‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’

You can find the parallels if you look.

I agree that living in and out of God's love is of the highest priority. If only we could fully grasp just how great His love is. As I get older I have discovered more about it yet I still think I'm far from being able to fully understand it.

Yes. I struggle to grasp that the Holy and Almighty God could love and desire me in his Kingdom, as evil a man as I am. But I take a bit of comfort in this thought:

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

I also agree that we can get hung up on issues of understanding God's ways and I believe often result in unloving behavior.

2 Timothy 2:23
But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.

Regarding all of the Holy Spirit guidance being confirmed by scripture I think this gets into interpretation of scriptures

What passages in particular do you think need interpretation, rather than the overt and common usage of the language?

and although I agree God does not contradict Himself our understandings and use of scriptures can be quite flawed.

That's undoubtedly true.

[temporal1]

Outsider,
you are really “bringing it” to this topic. thank you.

[Sudsy]

Outsider, referring to your last post -

Regarding the Holy Spirit being a person. I believe the Holy Spirit is a person and His being a person is spoken of throughout our bibles. I believe that not regarding the Holy Spirit as a person but rather regarding Him as an impersonal force or influence is a mistake we can make, although it may be hard to get our minds around.

I like how Him being a person and how we should regard Him is put in this article -

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/st ... person.cfm

The bible itself is a collection of books that men believe the Holy Spirit led them to chose and is believed to be a continuation of what was called the Hebrew Scriptures. Of note, when Paul wrote to Timothy and said 'all scripture' in 2 Tim. 3:16, Paul was referring to the OT Hebrew Scriptures. Not all of the NT had even been written at that time. The NT does say that Peter put Paul's writings on par with the OT Scriptures. Paul did believe his writings were inspired by God and where it was his own thoughts, he said so. And that brings the question of whether or not there are inspired writings today that are directed by the Holy Spirit that are on the same level of inspiration as Paul's letters. I believe most Christian groups would say that although God still inspires writings today, the Bible has a different status than any other writings and is to be regarded as the authoritative standard of Christian faith and practise. Here is another interesting, to me, link regarding the 'canon' -

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don ... rt_378.cfm

Regarding finding parallels in the OT to what Jesus said in the NT, here is an atheist attempting to say that Jesus fully supported everything in the OT and he takes certain things Jesus says literally to prove that. How would you correct this atheist ? (open to anyone to answer)

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/no-jesu ... hat-means/

[Outsider]

Outsider, referring to your last post -

Regarding the Holy Spirit being a person. I believe the Holy Spirit is a person and His being a person is spoken of throughout our bibles.

A "spirit" is a living entity, or a "person". Yes.

And that brings the question of whether or not there are inspired writings today that are directed by the Holy Spirit that are on the same level of inspiration as Paul's letters.

That would be "according to the faith" of the prophet being led by the spirit. But yes, I believe the Holy Spirit guides believers, if their ears and hearts are open to his leading. But both the prophet and the people receiving the word should "test the spirit"- through scripture, if it is knowledge. Obviously, if someone prophesies "this will happen" and "that" happens instead, he should be disregarded.

Regarding finding parallels in the OT to what Jesus said in the NT, here is an atheist attempting to say that Jesus fully supported everything in the OT and he takes certain things Jesus says literally to prove that. How would you correct this atheist ? (open to anyone to answer)

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/no-jesu ... hat-means/

I wouldn't need to "correct" him. It's true. "The letter of the law is death".

The spirit of the law is repentance.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Who is the author of death? Isn't it Satan? "For he has been a liar and a man-killer from the beginning". Who is the "Angel of Death"? Didn't Paul say he had given two men "over to Satan, for the destruction of the flesh"?

[Sudsy]

Outsider, referring to your last post -

Regarding the Holy Spirit being a person. I believe the Holy Spirit is a person and His being a person is spoken of throughout our bibles.

A "spirit" is a living entity, or a "person". Yes.

And that brings the question of whether or not there are inspired writings today that are directed by the Holy Spirit that are on the same level of inspiration as Paul's letters.

That would be "according to the faith" of the prophet being led by the spirit. But yes, I believe the Holy Spirit guides believers, if their ears and hearts are open to his leading. But both the prophet and the people receiving the word should "test the spirit"- through scripture, if it is knowledge. Obviously, if someone prophesies "this will happen" and "that" happens instead, he should be disregarded.

Regarding finding parallels in the OT to what Jesus said in the NT, here is an atheist attempting to say that Jesus fully supported everything in the OT and he takes certain things Jesus says literally to prove that. How would you correct this atheist ? (open to anyone to answer)

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/no-jesu ... hat-means/

I wouldn't need to "correct" him. It's true. "The letter of the law is death".

The spirit of the law is repentance.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Who is the author of death? Isn't it Satan? "For he has been a liar and a man-killer from the beginning". Who is the "Angel of Death"? Didn't Paul say he had given two men "over to Satan, for the destruction of the flesh"?

Thankyou. I would love to hear how others also might go about dealing with this atheist's argument which, to me, suggests that he is saying that scripture is not God breathed but rather man created for control purposes. Something we don't need.